Is This Normal?

[KL0K]

posted on January 8th, 2009, 7:34 am

Last edited by KL0K on January 8th, 2009, 7:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

i never liked the D'tai design that much, but its true, they need another lategame ship or a boost for a existing one.

what you think about about this idea:

- special research (or building) that gets accessable at the end of the techtree, namely something like "new (or "battle) orders of the high counsil" that boosts the stats of the 3 main and wellknown ships, k'vort, vor'cha, negh'var, that pushes their attack-, moveability- and overall offensiverate over the limit (maybe through a refit or just a permanent bonus like the ones of the avatarsystem/tech-upgrades), or grants access to another weapon refit, like "another pair of pulse disruptors on the k'vort, a pair of torpedolaunchers on the vor'cha, and 4 new pulse disruptors and another torp launcher on the neghvar.

posted on January 8th, 2009, 7:56 am

the Negh'var is a really defensive ship for the Klingons, it moves really slow and has a high defense rating compared to the attack rating, its not really useful for Klingons offensively. infact, none of the Klingon battleships are very good at raiding.

Really? Negh'Var stats (for the Martok avatar) are Attack 50 and Defense 42 and Martok actually gives the ship a +8 to Defense What I dont know is how does it have a high defensive value when compared to attack? Another problem with you theory is that the Negh'Var has short range which is not at all adeqate for defence. Its main weapons are torpedoes, its beam actually does very little damage so from all that we can conclude that it is actually an Attack vessle made specifically for killing main battleships and stations.
I do agree, however, that the ship is slow, but its a battleship - why should it be faster? All others' races battleships are also slow :S So its not made for raiding but for main assault. If you want to raid you have ships like Vor'Cha and Luspet with awesome special weapons as well. Also dont forget the Charg and that Sangs class. 
All you guys do is complain, just think about you post first.

Oh and BTW why should the Klingons have another late game battleship? Thats just not what they do. They focus on small ships and a few heavy cruisers and battleships, its the way they fight and if you dont like it choose another race to play as

[DarkDragon452]

posted on January 8th, 2009, 9:16 am

Last edited by DarkDragon452 on January 8th, 2009, 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

The Vorcha is quite powerful though in this game, but it is also costly. Perhaps make the D'tai an avatar super heavy cruiser / light battleship for the BOP boosting avatar? That'd be fucking awesome. Sorry if i'm on the wrong track here XD.

EDIT:


.
I think we have a problem with the history of this ship .

'During the Dominion war all twelve D'tai class vessels saw extensive service. Although they gave a good account of themselves, all were lost...'

Well, all that info is non-canon. The only info that is canon is that they appeared on screen. It was never explained in detail about the ship, so really, there's plenty of room for the Fleet Ops team to extrapolate their own history for the vessel.

I would LOVE to see the D'tai as an avatar bonus ship for the Bird of Prey avatar.

EDIT - To defend my position a little:

Really? Negh'Var stats (for the Martok avatar) are Attack 50 and Defense 42 and Martok actually gives the ship a +8 to Defense  What I dont know is how does it have a high defensive value when compared to attack?

One major problem with that assessment of the ship is that yes, it's powerful, but every other race has a ship that is superior to it, and it also lacks in special weapons capability, and it doesn't even have a cloak.

Another problem with you theory is that the Negh'Var has short range which is not at all adeqate for defence. Its main weapons are torpedoes, its beam actually does very little damage so from all that we can conclude that it is actually an Attack vessle made specifically for killing main battleships and stations.

Fair point, and I agree with your assessment that it is meant to kill battleships and stations. However, the klingon artillery cruiser does this much better, and at a lower cost. It's also much more mobile, and has a cloak.

The Negh'var also has trouble with some of the superships in the game. For every cube/tavara/v-15/ your fleet of negh'vars engage, you'll probably lose 5-10 negh'vars depending on their experience levels, the skill of your opponent, and the individual situation (does the ship have a backup fleet? Is it at their base or yours? Do you have a backup fleet? etc. etc.)

And at the high cost it takes to build negh'vars and their slow build time, you will get quickly overwhelmed in the late game against the races with super ships as the klingons, since they will be able to easily repel any light "harassment" fleet you send against their resources, and their superships will easily deal with any of your battleship sized ships.

I do agree, however, that the ship is slow, but its a battleship - why should it be faster? All others' races battleships are also slow :S So its not made for raiding but for main assault. If you want to raid you have ships like Vor'Cha and Luspet with awesome special weapons as well. Also dont forget the Charg and that Sangs class. 

Agreed, but the fact remains that late in the game, you will need HUGE fleets of negh'vars to even scratch a properly defended base. And since they build very slowly and are expensive, once again, it's easy to overwhelm the klingons if you survive their initial rushes. in the early game.

All you guys do is complain, just think about you post first.

Actually, I've thought about this quite a bit. And I'm not complaining, I'm suggesting a feature that I think could work well in the game.

Oh and BTW why should the Klingons have another late game battleship? Thats just not what they do. They focus on small ships and a few heavy cruisers and battleships, its the way they fight and if you dont like it choose another race to play as

First question: Because every other race does (except the feds, which I think is a little broken as well)

Second part: If the game is suppose to be balanced it should be possible to win against an equally skilled human opponent as any race, it should all come down to tactics.

Problem is, the klingons main tactic of "hit and run" not only doesn't work at all on certain maps, it piddles out to nothing in the late game, where their small, fast ships can be one-volleyed by most of the other races larger ships, and their own battleships are easily out-numbered and out-gunned by the other races.

The klingon player's only real hope for a victory is to rush, and if that fails, well you might as well just quit the game, since you won't get another shot. And god forbid if it's a small map where you won't be able to harass their attempts to control resources.

"if you don't like it play another race"

Hm, isn't a game supposed to be balanced? Or do you feel your playstyle is threatened by such feature requests because your race of choice is already one of the most powerful in the game?

[Actium]

posted on January 8th, 2009, 12:01 pm

Last edited by Actium on January 8th, 2009, 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

its actually funny how u guys talk here:
just as hint for all those who talk of using negh'var fleets
the fed sovreign sucks as well if u use it in fleets without the other fed ships
the klingons are surely not weak, also the negh'var can be a killer, but only if u use it right, in combination with other vessels. Evah tried it against cubes?
Its same as with the sovreign: u dont need the ship, its expensive, and it isnt the over all ship.
But it can help. Actually as fed player my main ships in endgame are: excelsiorII, defaint, a few remores and very few sovreigns ... cuz i only use em to stop bigger wings of my enemy and to take some fire, so my other ships can kill it.

its a error to think that the most expensive ship is the best for fleet battles, it IS good in certain situations, but surely not all.

posted on January 8th, 2009, 1:38 pm

Quote
Really? Negh'Var stats (for the Martok avatar) are Attack 50 and Defense 42 and Martok actually gives the ship a +8 to Defense  What I dont know is how does it have a high defensive value when compared to attack?

One major problem with that assessment of the ship is that yes, it's powerful, but every other race has a ship that is superior to it, and it also lacks in special weapons capability, and it doesn't even have a cloak.

Yep, each race has a supership that is superior to the Negh'Var, however those ships cost credits(Descent,Phalanx, V-15, Tavara) or are extremely costly (Cube). The question is, why would you compare Negh'Var to super ships? Its a main battleship and should be compared to the likes of D'deridex, Sovereign, V-13. As you can see it is more powerful than any of those ships and would win 1 on 1 comfortably.
While to this you might say that the Klingons need a super ship too, I can only reply that why should all the races be the same? The Klingons have other great stuff they use for credits. That M'Qbara station for instance, it increases the weapon strenght of all your vessles by a lot. Also the 2nd support ship and its ion storm, plow yourself into an enemy fleet with 3 of those and see their ships pop, or at least get badly damaged thus making it easier for your ships to deal with them.
From those examples you can see that Klingons actually do have "super" units, they just arent Battleships/Dreadnoughts.
But because the Klingons really dont have a lot of units to use their credits on, I think they should get something else to use them on. Optec already said they will though, so there's no problem

Another problem with you theory is that the Negh'Var has short range which is not at all adeqate for defence. Its main weapons are torpedoes, its beam actually does very little damage so from all that we can conclude that it is actually an Attack vessle made specifically for killing main battleships and stations.

Fair point, and I agree with your assessment that it is meant to kill battleships and stations. However, the klingon artillery cruiser does this much better, and at a lower cost. It's also much more mobile, and has a cloak.

The Negh'var also has trouble with some of the superships in the game. For every cube/tavara/v-15/ your fleet of negh'vars engage, you'll probably lose 5-10 negh'vars depending on their experience levels, the skill of your opponent, and the individual situation (does the ship have a backup fleet? Is it at their base or yours? Do you have a backup fleet? etc. etc.)

And at the high cost it takes to build negh'vars and their slow build time, you will get quickly overwhelmed in the late game against the races with super ships as the klingons, since they will be able to easily repel any light "harassment" fleet you send against their resources, and their superships will easily deal with any of your battleship sized ships.

Klingon cruisers are in no way better to destroying the stations or ships than Negh'Var (if your thinking of the blue (battle) disruptor ones). They might have decent attack, but their defence is very weak and they would get hammered if even a single battleship came close to them, so they require a support fleet. Add to that, they are also quite slow, so they cant run from battle.

If you loose 5-10 Negh'Vars from a fleet (of 16 I presume) every time you encounter one of those ships than you must be doing something wrong. There is no way in hell you're gonna loose even 5 Negh'Vars in 1 battle with 1 ship, not even with a cube (if you have a fleet of them ofc). Just yesterday I played vs the Romulan Hard AI and I had a fleet of about 10 Negh'Vars, 6 Vorcha, 3 Lu'Spet and a couple of those double tiny photon torp ships and a few battle disruptor ships. I have successfully fought the AI with that fleet in numerous battles and they kept sending mainly Tavaras and Warbirds at me. But because the AI cheats like a mother-fucker I eventually lost. My point is this, with that fleet I am sure I have destroyed about 5 times as many warbirds (at the end all of my ships had 2 gold bars ) and with you saying that everytime you encounter 1 "super" ship you loose a ton of Negh'Vars I know something must be wrong.
If you only send Negh'Vars into battle Im sure you get raped, because the Negh'Var is, in my eyes, a very specialist ship whose only meaningful weapon is the torpedo. So if the AI send (and they always do) some destroyers and cruisers with their battleships, I can see how you can get owned. The Torpedo misses a lot of the times vs smaller ships, so it takes a long time untill the Negh'Vars actually kill a destroyer, while in the meantime you're getting destroyed by the main battleships.
Try mixing your fleet a little and especially include the Vor'Cha, that IMO is the main Klingon ship and is also very powerful in the game.

And about the Negh'Var resource cost. Its actually not that big IMO, if you compare it to other battleships. If I remember correctly its about 700 dil, which is not bad at all. But its build time is long, yeah, but so is every other battleships' :-S. Your using the Negh'Var the wrong way IMO, it should be the focus of your fleet, not the most numerous member of the fleet. Again, use the Vor'Cha, Lu'Spet and Vupta as your main components and you will do much better.

I do agree, however, that the ship is slow, but its a battleship - why should it be faster? All others' races battleships are also slow :S So its not made for raiding but for main assault. If you want to raid you have ships like Vor'Cha and Luspet with awesome special weapons as well. Also dont forget the Charg and that Sangs class.

Agreed, but the fact remains that late in the game, you will need HUGE fleets of negh'vars to even scratch a properly defended base. And since they build very slowly and are expensive, once again, it's easy to overwhelm the klingons if you survive their initial rushes. in the early game.

The Klingon strenght is their numbers, dont stop building the B'Rels, K'Vorts and Vor'Chas and other cruisers just because you have the ability to build Negh'Vars. Overwhelme your enemies with numbers, that is how the Klingons do it. And most importantly, build proper fleets. Even a well defended base wont stand a chance against the attack of the Klingons
But if you only build fleets of Negh'Vars I believe you that you have problems attacking when attacking

All you guys do is complain, just think about you post first.

Actually, I've thought about this quite a bit. And I'm not complaining, I'm suggesting a feature that I think could work well in the game.

That wasnt actually directed at you specifically and Im sorry it seemd that way. Im just quite annoyed at some of the members over here, especially the ones that a lot of people keep telling the same thing but they dont listen... 
I know that (from what I can remember), your posts are well thought over and well structured 

Oh and BTW why should the Klingons have another late game battleship? Thats just not what they do. They focus on small ships and a few heavy cruisers and battleships, its the way they fight and if you dont like it choose another race to play as

First question: Because every other race does (except the feds, which I think is a little broken as well)

Second part: If the game is suppose to be balanced it should be possible to win against an equally skilled human opponent as any race, it should all come down to tactics.

Problem is, the klingons main tactic of "hit and run" not only doesn't work at all on certain maps, it piddles out to nothing in the late game, where their small, fast ships can be one-volleyed by most of the other races larger ships, and their own battleships are easily out-numbered and out-gunned by the other races.

The klingon player's only real hope for a victory is to rush, and if that fails, well you might as well just quit the game, since you won't get another shot. And god forbid if it's a small map where you won't be able to harass their attempts to control resources.

"if you don't like it play another race"

Hm, isn't a game supposed to be balanced? Or do you feel your playstyle is threatened by such feature requests because your race of choice is already one of the most powerful in the game?

I dont agree every race should have a super ship. Klingons have other neat features (explained somewhere above) and I dont think they should get an analog to the Dreadnought, Tavara, Cube. Klingon ships, with the help of a particular station, become very powerful and I do not think they are unbalanced.

Yeah, every race should (and does) have a chance against any other. Their strategy might be hit and run, but that only applies to outposts that are out of the enemies main base IMO. You need a coordinated assault vs main bases and I think the Klingons are able to do both. Their early game ships are designed to be able to pull of hit and run tactics and their end game ships are quite strong.
As I have explained somewhere above, the key is a well balanced fleet and not only a fleet of battleships (only the feds and roms can pull that one off in the game IMO).

Again Im sorry about the remark, but I was agitated 
IMO the game is balanced pretty well (though perfect balancing is almost to impossible since there are such differences between the races) and right now apart from some units, nothing stiks out as very outbalanced. IDK, maybe they could get the D'Tai as a special avatar unit in the future other than that... well IDK
For your last part I will say this: I've never tried to nerf a faction just because it would "threaten" my playing style. I think there is enough proof of that on the forums. I only post something when I think it is unbalanced and right now, I dont think the Klingons are unbalanced (but they do need to be played differently).
Also Id like to ask, if you can explain how if my race of choice one of the most powerful in the game? Especially cause it seems not many people play as Dominion over the internet and no one has mentioned this b4(as far as I can remember). I would like to hear your arguments though

posted on January 8th, 2009, 2:33 pm

Really? Negh'Var stats (for the Martok avatar) are Attack 50 and Defense 42 and Martok actually gives the ship a +8 to Defense What I dont know is how does it have a high defensive value when compared to attack? Another problem with you theory is that the Negh'Var has short range which is not at all adeqate for defence. Its main weapons are torpedoes, its beam actually does very little damage so from all that we can conclude that it is actually an Attack vessle made specifically for killing main battleships and stations.
I do agree, however, that the ship is slow, but its a battleship - why should it be faster? All others' races battleships are also slow :S So its not made for raiding but for main assault. If you want to raid you have ships like Vor'Cha and Luspet with awesome special weapons as well. Also dont forget the Charg and that Sangs class. 
All you guys do is complain, just think about you post first.

Oh and BTW why should the Klingons have another late game battleship? Thats just not what they do. They focus on small ships and a few heavy cruisers and battleships, its the way they fight and if you dont like it choose another race to play as

i meant a high defense rating compared to attack for the Klingons, not in general.


what it is designed to do and what it can do are two completely different things. and a slow moving Klingon ship without even a cloaking device is going to eliminate any sort of surprise in the raid like attack style the Klingons are so dependent on.

just because we disagree on a few points do not make my posts and ideas poorly thought out.

i never suggested a super ship, i suggested a batttleship designed for raiding. that can enhance the Luspet, Vorcha, Charg, and Sangs  strengths instead of robbing them of their quickness and stealth when used in combination with the current battleships. i agree ships should be used together and the Neghvar is horrible at it, robbing any chance of surprise with its slow moving non-stealth.

posted on January 8th, 2009, 2:55 pm

i meant a high defense rating compared to attack for the Klingons, not in general.

But thats their thing, thats how Optec decided the balancing will work out and for the same reason do the feds have higher defensive values and Roms have higher system values.

what it is designed to do and what it can do are two completely different things. and a slow moving Klingon ship without even a cloaking device is going to eliminate any sort of surprise in the raid like attack style the Klingons are so dependent on.

I did not say the ship was designed for suprise attacks. I said it was designed to be a heavy hitter against the stations and battleships, that is what it does. How well does it fill that role, however is dependand only on how well you use the ship. From my previous post read about my fight with the Roms yesterday, it did a pretty well on that occasion
As I have also already stated, the Negh'Var is the end-all ship, meaning you use it in you final attack against the base of your enemy. You can still use hit and run tactics with cruisers (which IMO are the most powerful in the game) such as Vorcha or even smaller, faster ships.

just because we disagree on a few points do not make my posts and ideas poorly thought out.

As I also posted b4, I am sorry I insulted anyone. I was just agitated because of some people.

i never suggested a super ship, i suggested a batttleship designed for raiding. that can enhance the Luspet, Vorcha, Charg, and Sangs  strengths instead of robbing them of their quickness and stealth when used in combination with the current battleships. i agree ships should be used together and the Neghvar is horrible at it, robbing any chance of surprise with its slow moving non-stealth.

As I already posted I can see the Klingons getting a faster battleship as an avatar unit, or maybe some other way. But IDK what Optec already has planned for the Klingons, he does have something though, as he has said something about it somewhere.
Negh'Var is not horrible when used in fleets, its just not a hit and run ship. Its the main battleship and as such used in the main assaults on the heavy defended bases.


I didnt mention this b4, but the Klingons can also upgrade their engines and if both upgrades are purchased all ships will be 21% faster. I think even a battleship will get pretty fast with that upgrade (if you really want to use on hit and run). 
I also dont care much if it does get the cloak, the team decided against it though and Im sure they have their reasons

posted on January 8th, 2009, 8:53 pm

An interesting solution to the problems we see here would be customisable avatars - that would really make multiplayer games unique and give an interesting new, uncertain tactical twist on the game. But alas, this will remain nothing more than a pipe dream for another future...

(Just something that occurred to me while reading the Baron's post )

posted on January 8th, 2009, 9:54 pm

An interesting solution to the problems we see here would be customisable avatars - that would really make multiplayer games unique and give an interesting new, uncertain tactical twist on the game. But alas, this will remain nothing more than a pipe dream for another future...

(Just something that occurred to me while reading the Baron's post )

but how would the user customize the avatar?
Spend time customizing or building up?

Plus the code would be enormous to allow for that kind of flexibility. also, what would be part of the customizable optionsn? Feds with borg cubes?

interesting thought, but don't think FO is ready for this - not given the current gameplay style or avatar layout.

[Actium]

posted on January 8th, 2009, 10:10 pm

Last edited by Actium on January 8th, 2009, 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hm, a idea would be that players get a amount of points and they can spend em at some kind of techtree
You guys remember C&C Generals:
With destroyed enemys you could earn some General-Ranks and Spend em on Special Stuff.
I would think its a good Idea to adapt it to FO, just with some changes, some kind of techtree as example.

posted on January 9th, 2009, 6:45 am

That would be great if it could be incorporated in a good way.
Borg do have something similar with the priority system, dont they :S

posted on January 9th, 2009, 7:40 am

yep thats a "for the far future" feature on todo 

posted on January 9th, 2009, 10:25 pm

I laugh at how you think that the Polaron Torp. is random! It attacks the nearest hard point, and occasionally makes the ship glitch up and become unrepairable. Isn't it obvious?