Hyper arty

[Kestrel]

posted on April 8th, 2011, 9:31 pm

Last edited by Kestrel on April 8th, 2011, 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Ah, the insults, how pleasant . Remember that this is an online forum, and some are more lenient than others when it comes to such.

Your post is inaccurate for the following reasons: The Hyperspace Artillery in your example deal less damage than the BortaS. Those first 3 Ion Storms will strip Sovies down to 22% of their hull health, and everything is just icing on the cake (Hyperspace Artilleries will take shields down to 55%, and hull down to 33% only in the center of the explosion). However, since your main justification for allowing BortaS in your online games while quitting when Hyperspace Artilleries are present is due to the supposed weakness of the BortaS compared to the Hyperspace, I will not expect you to recant.

Ah again comment on things you did not even witness, because if you did you would know the bortas pretty much missed, i saw the HSA coming and had my fleet keep moving to make it harder then the bortas set off their ion storm and got my miners but did small damage to only a few sovvies then the HSA shot at my would be position and kill everything.

You have been fed wrong info so get facts straight if you want to make a valid point or a fair comparison since as boggz said bortas are at the very end of the tech tree, the HSA are cheap fast to build and any dom player can get this bugged OP super weapon very early.

posted on April 8th, 2011, 9:37 pm

Your post is inaccurate for the following reasons: The Hyperspace Artillery in your example deal less damage than the BortaS. Those first 3 Ion Storms will strip Sovies down to 22% of their hull health, and everything is just icing on the cake Smiley (Hyperspace Artilleries will take shields down to 55%, and hull down to 33% only in the center of the explosion). However, since your main justification for allowing BortaS in your online games while quitting when Hyperspace Artilleries are present is due to the supposed weakness of the BortaS compared to the Hyperspace, I will not expect you to recant.

If you are so good with the numbers Dom tell me...WHY do we have a completly bugged version right now? I thought you are crazy about calculating...didnt you realize there must be something wrong with the ships?

[Nebula_Class_Ftw]

posted on April 8th, 2011, 9:43 pm

Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on April 8th, 2011, 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Another big difference is that HSA can fire from the longest range in the game, while Bortas needs to be right in the middle where Sovvies can fire back. It's unlikely all 3 Bortas will survive after decloaking if they didnt kill every ship with ion storm. Bortas also takes longer to recharge I thin (and that's before considering cloaking.)

Bortas has lots of things going against it that make it pretty balanced.


As for HSA balance and ideas:
I don't want minimum range. HSA can do friendly fire damage anyways so if it fires too close to itself it hurts itself a lot.

I do think it needs to be changed. I normally wouldnt say we should balance games for lag (lag is unpredictable), but the HSA is a special case in that its window is sooo small that we may actually have to consider lag's effects (perhaps assume lag with up to .5 second delay for orders, thus ensuring most lag scenarios are covered) for the balancing.
Then consider the possibility of a player not spending every single moment looking at their fleet: movement speed in FO mostly isn't large enuff relative to the HSA radius for a player to miss a few seconds and still keep their ships alive. And if you have 120+ speed? Congrats on having small ships with weak hull and shields. It's likely none will survive if they aren't microed perfectly.
HSA is way too cheap. I've teched to it in 2v2s without stopping any production and getting B5s and B8s. Two HSAs should definitely cost enuff to make me stop production for a while on at least one yard.
The HSA is also much too of an all-or-nothing type thing. Such high stakes can really take a lot of fun away for the player facing them.

posted on April 8th, 2011, 10:22 pm

If you are so good with the numbers Dom tell me...WHY do we have a completly bugged version right now? I thought you are crazy about calculating...didnt you realize there must be something wrong with the ships?

  Hey.  Cool it  >:(


  The bugged passives weren't noticed by ANYONE until almost two months after it came out.  Not you.  Not me.  Not Dom.  It was just an accident that wasn't easily noticeable unless you were intentionally looking for it.


  While I agree that HSA needs a change (I'm more up for a price increase), there is no need for this kind of childish finger pointing that's going on.  Knock it off.

posted on April 8th, 2011, 10:29 pm

The HSA was designed for use against stations.  But it's wide effect makes it useful against ships as well as stations.  That has to be changed.

posted on April 8th, 2011, 10:40 pm

As someone who has been messing around with BortaS a lot in the past week or so...I can say that I fear BortaS much more than Hyper Arty.  It's way more damage arranged however you like and when they rank.... 

Hyper Arties screw with little ships, BortaS makes big ships bleed...

posted on April 8th, 2011, 10:42 pm

HSA does double to stations and largely reduced to a number of ships (like the Sovereign). It already hurts stations a lot more than ships.

posted on April 8th, 2011, 10:58 pm

HSA does double to stations and largely reduced to a number of ships (like the Sovereign). It already hurts stations a lot more than ships.

Yes but its rarely used agaisnt stations anymore, and 2 of them with weapon upgrades is devastating to a fleet of any kind and any size which has been proven over and over.

posted on April 8th, 2011, 11:07 pm

Both Hyperspace Artillery and BortaS require four stations to build (that's the Field Yard, Battle Yard, Imperial Research, and Imperial Yard or Small Yard, Large Yard, Tech Lab, and Ketracel). Neither are technically at the top of the tech tree, nor available super early and both have equivalent costs to tech to.

What has been proven over and over again is that this paradigm shifts every few months. If you look back over before you became a member here, which isn't all that long ago, you'd see the blame has gone back between BortaS and Hyperspace, without using almost any evidence in any of the arguments.

posted on April 8th, 2011, 11:18 pm

about the tech levels, although both are equal-ish from the starting position, the dominion will have an easier time getting hsa imo as they will build the first 3 of their necessary stations in common strats (b5 uses small yard tech lab large yard as standard), leaving them only ketracel to make.

the klinks will regularly only get 2 of them. rarely do people ever make imperial yard before mid to late game.

posted on April 8th, 2011, 11:21 pm

Equivalent tech costs? That's not good considering that Klingons have expensive ships while Dominion have cheap ones. Also, you have to factor in the tech up time, which I'm pretty sure is greater for Klingons.

Plus what Myles said. All this starts to add up...

posted on April 8th, 2011, 11:43 pm

Ok, I'll play it straight for you all then, since I'm a nice guy

- For Martok -

60 Imperial 1008 dil
90 Imperial Research 600 dil
50 Battleyard 784 dil
30 Field 350 dil
= 230 seconds for your first BortaS to start and 2742 dil. As a reminder, BortaS takes 83 seconds to build.

- For Puretech -

70 Tech 600 dil
60 Large 1440 dil
90 Ket 600 dil
40 Small 960 dil
= 260 seconds for your first Hyperspace to start and 3600 dil. As a reminder, Hyperspace takes 203 seconds to build.

Those are just purely added up numbers - now remember guys, really CAREFULLY pick your conclusions from this 

[Nebula_Class_Ftw]

posted on April 8th, 2011, 11:55 pm

Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on April 8th, 2011, 11:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Slight problem. You simply added the individual build times for research stations only. My definition of techup time is not that, I mean realistically how long it would take on average assuming no big mistakes. Do you really think that you're going to have enuff resources to go that fast while building shipsas Martok (I know from experience Puretech can do it.)
Also, Ket and Large can build at the same time right? So the techup time if you add individual values should be 40+70+90=200 seconds. Imp research can build once battle yard is done right? In that case the time with individual values is30+50+90=170 seconds.

Can't argue with the techup cost being more for HSA, tho I do think the Dominion has more res to spare.

Oh and, have you considered that HSA can use its AoE immediately upon building, but Bortas needs research (this is assuming it has cloak btw)?

posted on April 8th, 2011, 11:58 pm

Lol ok ok...

  The numbers are helpful in determining how much it actually costs to reach these vessels.  While this supports the notion that HSA are not somehow easier to reach economically than Bortas, these numbers are clearly not the only factors in determining a vessels utility.


 I think it would be very presumptuous of anyone in this argument to think the HSA balance / imbalance could be narrowed down to 1 thing.  It's a dynamic unit that has an affect on the game relatively unique from anything else.

posted on April 9th, 2011, 12:34 am

The Dominion will use those extra resources buying supply every 30 seconds because of their expensive station supply costs.