Nvidia 8--- and 9--- series defect

posted on February 24th, 2011, 5:24 pm

So this mistake really has cost them.

it also cost tryptic and countless others. the market will make the company pay a cost, just later. i think the law should make them pay the cost to the customer. that way the company loses and the consumer doesnt.

posted on February 24th, 2011, 6:13 pm

That may be true, but the way computer hardware evolves these days I'm not sure it matters. It seems like there's a new,, "better" item on the market every six months. Certainly every year. So while yes, nVidia should have recalled the cards, it's likely that by the time the problem manifested, they were already on to the next model and it would have cost them much more to replace all the defective ones. But, if not replacing the cards resulted in the loss of an OEM contract, then maybe the loss was about the same. Either way enough people change their hardware frequently enough that it doesn't matter.

Obviously, no one expected nVidia to make a piece of crap; hell nVidia didn't think they were making a piece of crap. But they did, and it's not entirely their fault. Could they have handled their response better, yeah, but they didn't. And in the end, they probably aren't any worse off.

P.S.
I just realized something. While I obviously don't know the details of OEM contracts and such, it's entirely possible that under these contracts any nVidia warranties or guarantees don't apply, but rather are replaced by the OEM's warranty, especially in the case of laptops where the GPU is physically integrated into the motherboard. In that case, nVidia may not have had the "power" to recall the cards. That responsibility fell to the OEMs. Even in the case of cards sold separately, the only thing nVidia actually makes is the GPU chip. The actual card is made by a third party, i.e. EVGA, PNY, Galaxy, etc. At least that's my understanding. So nVidia could recall the chip, but the manufacturers would have to decide what to do about replacements/refunds/etc.

posted on February 24th, 2011, 6:31 pm

didnt realsise its was that bad thought it was like 2% of cards that were bad feel quite lucky my 8400,which is 2.5 years old hasnt had any probs per date,bu thank you for the insite

posted on February 24th, 2011, 6:51 pm

Yeah, In America most warranties are 1 year and you have to register.  Ironically, my last computer died because it overheated so I took very good care of this one.  And because I took good care of it, it lasted 1 year and 2 months and is outside the warranty.  I should have treated it like crap 

Basically, offering a 3 year warranty on a laptop computer is a very stupid thing to do because the parts aren't replaceable and one failure renders the entire system inoperable.  As a buyer, you should ALWAYS buy a 3-year warranty from the manufacturer.  Heck, if I had done that I wouldn't need to buy a new laptop EVER, just new warranties for the ones they send me as replacements 

Of course, my computer is an Asus and I've learned that the reason they have better numbers at lower cost is because they use cheaper materials in their frames.  As such, they can't be expected to last as long as, say, a Toshiba which gives the same stats for $300 more.

Keep in mind that only MANUFACTURER warranties do anything.  Retail warranties are basically a scam, they usually have a clause that says it doesn't cover anything the manufacturer warranty covers, which is everything bad that can happen to your computer!  Also if their service technicians can't fix it they aren't obligated to replace it.

Long story short, gaming laptops don't last very long so get them "protected" and you'll effectively get a big discount on your next one 

posted on February 24th, 2011, 10:43 pm

Yeah, In America most warranties are 1 year and you have to register.  Ironically, my last computer died because it overheated so I took very good care of this one.  And because I took good care of it, it lasted 1 year and 2 months and is outside the warranty.  I should have treated it like crap 

Basically, offering a 3 year warranty on a laptop computer is a very stupid thing to do because the parts aren't replaceable and one failure renders the entire system inoperable.  As a buyer, you should ALWAYS buy a 3-year warranty from the manufacturer.  Heck, if I had done that I wouldn't need to buy a new laptop EVER, just new warranties for the ones they send me as replacements 

Of course, my computer is an Asus and I've learned that the reason they have better numbers at lower cost is because they use cheaper materials in their frames.  As such, they can't be expected to last as long as, say, a Toshiba which gives the same stats for $300 more.

Keep in mind that only MANUFACTURER warranties do anything.  Retail warranties are basically a scam, they usually have a clause that says it doesn't cover anything the manufacturer warranty covers, which is everything bad that can happen to your computer!  Also if their service technicians can't fix it they aren't obligated to replace it.

Long story short, gaming laptops don't last very long so get them "protected" and you'll effectively get a big discount on your next one 

I have had bad experance with toshiba.  Actually, I have an Asus mothetboard that is nerely 15 years old and it still works fine.  Are you sure you don't mean acer?

I know nothing of Asus's customer service though, because honestly, I have never needed to replace one of their products.

@Myles

Honestly, in the USA we try to let people fail on their own.  If you bought a crappy card and expected it to be good, the free market says you won't do that again unless you had a very good experienced with the company, e.g. it was replaced.  If the company made a mistake ind didn't fix the problem, it isn't up to our government to force them to fix it, it is up to the people to not buy from them again.  If the issue was really that bad, the company would go under, get bought, and the new owner would probably do things differently. 

In the case of a graphics card, I have to agree with atlantis.  If the card was out of date by the time it went bad, the company wouldn't gain any money for fixing it.  Sure, it may put a bad taste in your mouth, but it is their choice, and if their products are good enough, you will buy another one despite your previous experience. It may be sad, heartless, and downright rude, but if they are still the best, they can really do whatever they want as long as people buy their products. If they did it enough times, you can be sure they would go out of business, but one time is not always all it takes.

posted on February 24th, 2011, 10:48 pm

i dont like that philosophy, it assumes that the consumer will vote with their feet and nvidia will go out of business when they obviously wont. they will keep screwing people over until somebody stops them. the only way to stop them is to force them to behave like adults.

nvidia is never gonna change things, people are gonna keep getting screwed over. nividia messed up, they should be told to put it right.

posted on February 24th, 2011, 10:53 pm

Indeed Myles - same reason the tobacco and oil companies were so effective. 'Companies' lie as much as people, and without regulations or penalties for poor business decisions they can get away with murder - literally.

posted on February 24th, 2011, 11:02 pm

Indeed Myles - same reason the tobacco and oil companies were so effective. 'Companies' lie as much as people, and without regulations or penalties for poor business decisions they can get away with murder - literally.

True, but I don't think it is the government's job to stop them.  Our country has always held to the free market and unless the company is doing something illegal, or against a contract you and they signed, the government should have no power to stop them.  If it is not something against what you agreed to, it is not their fault, its yours. 

Not that I support NVIDIA's actions at all, but I definitely don't think it is the government's job to force them to replace parts, ect.  It is your duty as a consumer to be sure you know what you are getting into, and if you buy a part that fails and you didn't get a manufacturer warranty, it isn't the manufacturer's fault.

posted on February 24th, 2011, 11:29 pm

True, but I don't think it is the government's job to stop them.  Our country has always held to the free market and unless the company is doing something illegal, or against a contract you and they signed, the government should have no power to stop them.  If it is not something against what you agreed to, it is not their fault, its yours. 

see what you are agreeing to is part of the difference here. when u buy something what u expect is different from what they want to give u.

u would expect that the product would last a reasonable amount of time and be of acceptable quality, but they would expect nothing more than is written on the box. as long as u got what the box says is inside they are happy. but when u fork over money for something there is no contract signed. that is where the british legal system steps in and says that a purchaser expects certain things when they buy something. fit for purpose, as advertised, resonable quality, and lasts a reasonable amount of time. those things are always assumed when u buy something here. i think they should be everywhere. right now under the consumer law you have absolutely no expectation other than you get what they said they are selling. which i find deeply disturbing.

i dont think any consumer would buy a nividia graphics card accepting it will last a year. but the law says as long as the box has the card inside then nvidia isnt doing anything wrong. when clearly they are. it depends on how you define the product.

i consider lasting a reasonable amount of time to be part of the deal when i buy something, and as such the law mandates it.

in the american system everyone knows what they are getting into and have no choice other than to get into it, and get screwed over by companies like nvidia.

consumers wont stop these companies, they cant. that only leaves the law.

we'd all love for a free market to be efficient and sort these things out, but it never will because somebody will always have hidden cards and screw someone else over.

posted on February 25th, 2011, 12:03 am

The thing is, nVidia didn't necessarily know the cards were bad untill the problems manifested 1-2 years later. So it's not as if they wanted to sell you a bad product. However, just because they made one batch of bad cards and didn't handle the issue in the best way doesn't mean that all their products are crap. And, as I said before, I'm pretty sure that nVidia just makes the GPU core; the actual cards are made by a third party to specs that nVidia supplies. So you're not actually dealing with nVidia, you're dealing the the manufacturer of your card or computer. Translation the guarantees and warranties aren't provided by nVidia, but by the manufacturers.

Now it's not like Americans don't have expectations about how long a product should last; we do, and companies reflect that in the form of warranties. And 90% of the time when something breaks, the manufacturers replace or fix it, although usually only within warranty frames. But instituting a federal level law that forces companies to replace products is the kind of unnecessary regulation which can kill businesses.

You can argue that the free market idea that if a consumer has a bad experience with a company, they will not buy from them again does or doesn't work. In this case, there's really only one alternative, ATI, and some people - myself included - don't like ATI. And one little bad experience isn't going to change brand loyalties. I speak from experience. I used an ATI in a laptop for four years until it fried itself, it ran hotter than blazes, even doing very little, early on it gave me all kinds of fits, and I never liked the performance I got out of it. I put a nVidia 6200 in an 10 year old computer and I never had a single problem playing even some more recent stuff. In the future, moving the GPU onto the CPU die may change this dual-opoly in the GPU world, who knows. But given that there are only two choices right now, it would take a lot for consumers by themselves to tank nVidia just because of some bad cards.

posted on February 25th, 2011, 12:38 am

I have to agree completely with Atlantis.  Infact, I forgot that Nvidia cards are made by a third-party manufacturer, so you would have to force the manufacturer to replace a card that they didn't entirely build.  It might not be any of their fault it went bad.  Maybe it was whoever supplied the silicon? You can't just punish Nvidia because their name is on it.  It makes more sense for the person who bought the product to decide what action to take, not the government's.  If some part of the manufacturing process went wrong, it can't really be helped, even if you were to force Nvidia to replace them.

Its the difference between a few thousand people losing a bit of money and buying a new card, probably from the same people, or forcing a company to pay millions of dollars to fix something that wasn't your fault.  It is really the lesser of two evils.

[Atlantisbase]

posted on February 25th, 2011, 2:09 am

Last edited by Atlantisbase on February 25th, 2011, 2:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

Infact, I forgot that Nvidia cards are made by a third-party manufacturer

ATI does this too. Neither of them actually make the cards, just the core chip and the specifications. It's the third parties who are responsible for the finished package.

posted on February 25th, 2011, 2:48 am

See I already thing the federal government is way to involved in my life the way it is. If i really only need something to last threw one use why should the government have to insure its quality?? For instance i buy a new screwdriver and plan to use it to pry something open with it. Now i know that its hard on the tip to do that but i dont care because i really didnt intend for it to last longer than one use. Now like i said eailer i had one of the defective mobos so i was burned by it. Now i think nvidea should have recalled it, did they no. Do i want to government to step in and "protect" me not really. But thats just my opinion

posted on February 25th, 2011, 2:51 am

I was a bit too harsh with my original post since, well, my computer died and I'm pissed.

Nvidia DID pay 200 million dollars to replace 8400 and 8600 cards, which where the ones found "most" defective.  And as I said earlier gaming laptops don't last very long anyway, they're optimized for performance instead.

As to the Free Market fixing itself, Nvidia has taken a massive hit to their stock.  They were on the verge of wiping ATI off the market, but now ATI options are more available on laptops than Nvidia.  Furthermore, the Asian vendor that produced the cheap backing material has been dropped like a rock, and the lesson learned.  This problem won't be coming back anytime soon, I expect.

If people do their jobs, the problem will get fixed whether it's the Free Market system or a government agency controlling it.  I think overall the Free Market system takes less money to run and has less opportunity for corruption, but I'll admit it's harsher to people who don't pay attention to what they're buying.

[Atlantisbase]

posted on February 25th, 2011, 3:31 am

Last edited by Atlantisbase on February 25th, 2011, 3:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

If people do their jobs, the problem will get fixed whether it's the Free Market system or a government agency controlling it.  I think overall the Free Market system takes less money to run and has less opportunity for corruption, but I'll admit it's harsher to people who don't pay attention to what they're buying.

I'd agree, except for the bit about corruption. Corruption is still possible, especially when there's no transparency. But if a company is open about its doings, then, in theory corruption should be preventable by consumers. But, in theory, that's what government regulation and oversight are there for to fill in for what consumers can't do; unfortunately they just don't get implemented very effectivly. In reality though, people probably pay less attention than they should and expect companies to be more open than they are. End result: consumers get burned.

The only other down side is that you can get super giants like nVidia and ATI, Intel and AMD, Microsoft and Apple. So even if you think both are crap, you have nowhere to run as a consumer and so you have to pick one, thus both survive. In some ways though, I actually like that there aren't tons of choices. If you have too many, it's impossible to know which is best or at least is the most desirable since they'll all be pretty much the same.