Suggestions/Questions for online game play.

posted on October 2nd, 2010, 4:17 am

lol sounds like a deal Mal.

Like I do see some downsides. You will have research up and running, getting in with specials way before me.

But I like a little variety. And, just because it doesn't work right away, you are absolutely right about my beginning thoughts, I will want them to be crushed completely before I give up.

Losing is good. You learn.

Anyone play chess? lol best game ever. If you learn the game from someone who is decent, lol its like three years of losing before you get good. Well, depends what age you start and everything... 

Everyone must pay their dues.

posted on October 2nd, 2010, 4:20 am

Noting that there is variety in conventional game play of course, but what is society without the insane individuals who decide to do the non-sensible and ridiculous.

Get enough of em, someone will think of something. Even if its not me. 

posted on October 2nd, 2010, 6:03 am

lol, due to some recent developments I may have to recant. Just lost a whole series of games in small maps vs AI Merciless. I am beginning to see the light.

First, the only thing that confuses me, is how the AI beat me... but as I've heard you guys say, it must cheat or something. The game stats say I collected 36148 in economic, whereas the AI only collected 19476. My military also is shown as twice that of the AI's but it wasn't... At the end, I was at Vorchas like usual, but I was up against sovereigns, defiants and everything. Swarming insanity.

So I think this showed me the light one way or the other. In the beginning, it may or may not have worked... But the problem will be that even if I do outproduce someone in ships early, and maybe get slight edge in expanding first for a time, I will be lagging big time when it comes to the cruisers and battleships. I'll have to catch up with still buiilding all the research stations, and advanced yards so that when you are building better vessels, I won't be stuck on my smaller ones.

Interesting.

Still, seems fine on larger maps. But yes, I see now that with online being smaller maps, and since humans outplay AIs for the most part, problems exist.

lol but they were some very good games. I was doing pretty good for while, but even with three expansions, on winds of war, the AI got to everything else and was building shipyards in the middle and couldnt really build anything fast enough.

Hopefully I can blame this on AI merciless cheating. But even so, there is the problem of me being stuck on small vessels since I fall behind in getting to the larger ones through research stations.

So I'm just wondering... Normal AI loses, Hard AI loses, Merciless AI destroys. What exactly is changing when I up the levels of AI? Are the tactics being upgraded, like is it actually playing better, or is it cheating with faster build times, and getting away with not having resources but still having ships galore. 

posted on October 2nd, 2010, 6:04 am

Losing is good. You learn.

In that case I must be one of the most learned players of Fleet Ops 

posted on October 2nd, 2010, 7:04 pm

Well, yes, but the key is knowing why each time you lost... and then changing in light of whatever you were doing wrong. But yeah, I don't see any problem with losing as long as it helps improvement. Just think, if you are always winning, where is the improvement there? haha

So, I am happy to update that I was able to beat AI merciless, had to do it with double resources though. I think Boggz, or someone else gave a short list of favourite maps online. I played with Champagne supernova. Wicked map, lots of moons.

Federation Merciless got pummelled. hee hee.

So, I changed everything I did, just about.  But I now believe you really do need the third construction ship. The moons are more separated, so I had to change things up.

(With double resources) Used the given two construction ships to build a shipyard and dilithium refinery. When the shipyard was done, and the third construction ship was build, I sent the two to the nearest dilithium moon. The one that stays behind builds trilithium refinery, and first research facility, and researches specials for the Kbeajq and kvort.

At the nearest dilithium moon, built refinery, and two shipyards with brel and kbeajq expansion. Sent one to the trilithium moon for another refinery. Built armory and ordinance depot over time, and get battle yard and imperial yard over time.

The one at the home base obviously builds the three research stations. The dilithium moon expansion ends up having two field yards with two ship platforms, imperial yard, and battleyard.

At some point, the construction ships don't need to build any more shipyards, or research stations. Didnt build Imperial research or the Maqbara... although you could. So,I sent the construction ships out to other moons and just built a refinery but didn't defend it. I think I had about 5 or 6 at the end. They were attacked... but if they  were lost it was fine. I had enough that one loss wasn't bad. I would just keep shifting the three construction ships around rebuilding them.

And I did as suggested! Attacked them first. So, as soon as the first yard was built, built three kbeajq,  and then the two at the expansion built two each, a kvort and kbeajq, and attacked with seven. haha, It was non stop battle. I never attacked the mining though. I just kept them a little ways away from the AIs shipyard, and kept reinforcing them with more and more ships, while expanding to keep up resources. Had time to build the research stations, and all three yards with ease. The AI did attack the refineries that were undefended, quite a bit at first, but it worked out, and they stopped after I had a few refineries. Since my ships never attacked the mining or anything, and just stayed near their yards, they were more focussed on that, than my mining. I would some time retreat and come back in larger force. But it worked quite well.

Still humans can do better. But if anyone one is looking for a good game against the AI, I must admit... smaller maps are a really good challenge. But the AI never got to building their advanced yard this time, sadly. But I did get a few Neghvars in quick enough to just finish and take out the starbase. But this is another AI shortcoming. They only built one starbase, and after the starbase is destroyed its over. They don't rebuild or do anything. So, it just worked because the starbase couldnt hold.

Overall, it was a great game. I'll keep trying to go to smaller maps, but without lots of moons, it will be more and more difficult. Champagne is 16X16, with lots of moons, and it seemed to work.

lol. I name this Refinery Cannon Fodder.  lol

I think I'll just drop online inquiries til I get on, obviously, you can only say and ask so much. But for anyone who likes playing against AI, this is good. Since I now know I can beat one AI merciless on Champagne Supernova, it is time for two normal AI Eventually, obviously be blown to bits, no way anything above 2 AI merciless will be winnable in small maps. lol but imagine if it was! But, at some point, there will be a balance between number of AIs, and what a human can do.  And the game will be glorious for the Klingons!

posted on October 2nd, 2010, 11:45 pm

Next step:  Play with normal resources.  You will NEVER find a player willing to play with more .

posted on October 2nd, 2010, 11:48 pm

yeah, more resources makes the game really boring. fleetops is balanced only for default settings. just push the default settings button, then play.

with changed settings balance is thrown out.

posted on October 3rd, 2010, 1:20 am

ok. fair enough.

posted on October 3rd, 2010, 2:22 am

Next step:  Play with normal resources.  You will NEVER find a player willing to play with more .

I will! Mwahahahaha i'm not drunk 

posted on October 3rd, 2010, 2:57 am

lol this is proving to be more than a challenge... but I will perhaps beat it another time.

I lost two games in a row in Champagne supernova. By no means a knock out. But, after about 45 min or so perhaps, I was destroyed by teams of excelsior IIs, Remores, Defiants, Sovereigns, Newtons, Akiras, Intrepids, lol need I go on. No sabers though... lucky me.

I have not given up. I was doing well I think, for first attempts on normal resources. lol is that even against an AI Merciless though? I agree that it cheats. Again, I looked at the stats afterwards, I was exceedingly ahead in economy. Had 7 refineries going around the map. None were even attacked. (We were right on top of each other in map location.

I think my mistake this time was not upgrading my shipyards well. At the point I was losing, I had three Kvort yards, three Kbeajq yards, a battle yard, and imperial yards. I think I was not building my battle yard and imperial yard cruisers and battleships fast enough. Obviously, because the AI attacked with far to many of theirs for me to do anything. Six vorchas, 3 Neghvars, and a dozen kvorts/kebeajqs each were wiped out.... slowly, but efficiently.

The other thing... although I did attack first, it never seemed like there was a point where I could get in to do significant damage. I will improve.

The other thing... maybe I'll try cheating. I'll adjust the computers ship build time, and ship build costs to a easier setting perhaps - until I get the right strategy worked out in a good rhythm.

Today was a good day to die.

lol

posted on October 3rd, 2010, 3:44 am

Yeah, normally I play with normal resources... just with merciless AI, and multiple AIs... I don't. Sometimes against borg as well.

Couple things to add:

forgot to mention. First game lost against Mayson... lost a bit worse than then the second, but I made some mistakes in the beginning of the first game. But I think because there is the nova and norway ships, it actually takes the Mayson AI faster to get to its advanced yard. It takes time building those ships for a while. Also, in the second, I was against Risner, and actually, there was never an avalon in the game that I saw. At one point I did have to destroy three or four phalanxs though. I think Risner AI is quicker to get to its advanced yard ship building.

-  my question is, is there a way to know which avatar the AI is? or do I have to wait to see which ships they build? - and, I know the difference as far as the ship designs.. but what changes between Risner and Mayson? Anything I should look to do specifically against one or the other?

Another thing I goofed, I noticed the thing about building turrets against the AI... but I didn't in both my games. I was trying to keep up with the fleet numbers and get my ships out on par with the AI. For a while, I was initiating all the attacks, but then when the final wave game after I was retreating from my own attack which had its losses, I just had no safe haven to go to with turrets and all to defend me against the counter attack. I did beat the first wave, but oh, they just kept coming. And my resources tanked from over ship production.

Also could work on the researching aspect. I do focus on building the research  stations up to ordinance depot as timely as can be expected. In the final battle, whole screen was full of AI specials going off.

Always one with ideas for doing something different than what I did before though, I will find a way .

Any suggestions for beating the AI merciless?

posted on October 3rd, 2010, 3:56 am

The AI builds both Risner and Mayson specific ships

posted on October 3rd, 2010, 4:02 am

oh! lol, the main question that I wanted for my next game I forgot to ask... lol

K, yes, I'm reading a lot about the counters and everything... but for against federation *as Klingon, haha, need I say*. What ships should I be targeting first, ships should I be building that would work best against Feds?

So far, I think maybe I've been too focussed on the Kbeajqs, and Kvorts to start. Perhaps. They seem to do their jobs well as a partnered team. Later in the game I introduce Qawduj, and Sang? (The long range one from the battle yard). Then I get to Vorchas, Chonaqs and  Neghvars. I play as Martok... almost always.

haha, and I just realized I dont build the Luspets.

Certainly have more things to try out.

- as I was typing Dominus replied:

really? is that fair? come to think of it you may be right. I was thinking both times I was against mayson... there were novas and norways in the second game I played. then the phalanx's showed up.

hmm. lol I guess this is good in a way... I will be practicing against both at the same time lol.

Plus... now I know it builds the advanced yards at a consistent rate. all things that are good to know.

posted on October 3rd, 2010, 10:59 am

The AI builds both Risner and Mayson specific ships

Are you sure? I've never see them, I've only ever seen Mayson ones. The AI file also only includes things for Mayson.

posted on October 3rd, 2010, 12:51 pm

//Military Phase 4
"fed_sovereign", 4,0, -1,  0,
"fed_defiant", 6,0, -1,  0,
"fed_canaveralZ", 1,0, -1,  0,
"fed_akiraZ", 3,0, -1,  0,
"fed_intrepidZ", 2,0, -1,  0,
"fed_excelsioriiZ", 4,0, -1,  0,
"fed_saberZ", 2,0, -1,  0,
"fed_monsoonZ", 4,0, -1,  0,
"fed_norway", 4,0, -1,  0,
"fed_remoore", 1,0, -1,  0,
"fed_phalanxr5",

You are right though, it doesn't include an entry for the Avalon. That's gotta be an oversight  . Oh Oooooooopteeeeeeeec