Suggestions/Questions for online game play.

posted on September 30th, 2010, 9:21 pm

I think you should at least try a game on a small map where you don't build any constructors, maybe only build one field yard (although double-yarding is actually an acceptable strategy vs humans)

There are ways to play against the AI where you PRETEND they are a human, which will get you closer to the actual gameplay you'll find online.

First, always attack the AI before they attack you.  Humans attack up to 2-3 minutes earlier than the AI, with maybe 2 ships, directly at your mining.  You need to be ready.

Second, ignore the AI's expansions.  Players will defend their expansions better than the AI does, and if destroyed they will rebuild faster than the AI will.  Attack the AI's main mining to learn how to raid mining properly.

Third, never lose a ship.  When one of your ships is damaged, have it run away.  A human opponent will send ships to get the killing blow, but an AI will not.  You should be able to beat a normal AI without ever losing a single ship.

If you do these things, there'll be less "culture shock" when you start playing against human opponents.

---

Also, here's a fun challenge to do against AI normals:

Play as the borg, choose assim avatar and win without building a conduction matrix.  It CAN be done. You simply wallpaper the map with incubation chambers from one side to the other, the slow assimilation of nearby enemies will eventually net you a handful of ships.  If you run into trouble you can get a probe fleet to defend yourself and help board enemy craft

posted on September 30th, 2010, 9:42 pm

hmm. I see.

So first off, they attack 2-3 minutes earlier? Would be a problem. But I could switch it so that my first field yard at the expansion builds a couple Kbeajqs to defend, before I build a second or third yard. Good idea. Why be defenseless when you dont have to be? But they would only be attacking with sabers first right? So as long as I can build a field yard, the platform, and get one ship built hmm... I'll have to see.

Yes, the double platform I liked, and always did on larger maps.. but I think that is why I lost the first time against the Hard AI... but I do prefer having a mix of ships then just the Kbeajqs at the start.

Um, but why do I attack the AI before it attacks me? What would I attack it with, early on even at best you could only get 5 ships. And at the home base,not expansion? haha, im actually confused... the home base has a starbase, the expansion only has one or two turrets, and a shipyard with a few ships. Wouldnt the starbase eat me up? But I understand to the extent of you saying AIs dont defend them well, humans do it better. (haha, that is good to know, AI expansions are to easy, except on merciless, on large maps.. by the time you get to them, they have a good dozen plus ships - its a fight)

And you reminded me! The ship repairing, yes! In large maps, whenever I raid the expansion... I cant help but lose my ships because if I retreat them, I dont want to lose the firepower,  and it takes to long to go back and forth from shipyard and attack, so I do lose ships in large maps. But I was happily surprised in the small maps... its really easy to maintain a good raid *on the expansion, because ships can be repaired and built and brought into the battle much quicker in the small maps. - Im surprised I didnt write about that, I was very happy to keep most of my ships... but I did lose some when they attacked me, like for the duke out of monsoons, intrepids, akiras, newtons, and sabers vs my ships... oh I lost a bunch, but they lost everything so its ok.

And, actually, I would be happy to try out your idea... it actually sounds fun. Playing borg drives me nuts, having to rebuild those shipyards *are they the conduction matrixes? what you build ships with? I havent memorized all the terms for the different shipyards or stations. Because rebuilding them just to make one ship at a time... haha, Im just not that patient or focused on shipyard building. lol letting the enemy build all the ships and assimilating them... I like it. I may have to play the borg real quick first, because I dont recognize the station names or what they do. *borg will really have to be something I work on when I get online... I really am quite inexperienced with  them.

Klingon would be my best.. if I had to choose. Federation would be my next best... but for small maps, I already know this wont even close to work. Because in large maps you actually have a hard time, but its doable (the strat Im using). Cause in larger maps, after you build all the mining stations, and shipyards... before you can build anything bigger than a saber, you need the research station and chasis 1. In large maps you can get it done, but I really doubt you could in small maps. Also takes time to get the resources.. fed shipyards are 800 di, klingons is only 400. wouldnt be able to get three shipyards up at all or anything. It would be ugly.

But thanks for the tips!

posted on September 30th, 2010, 11:13 pm

When I say "attack," what I really mean is harass.  For Klingons this means 2-3 ships attacking the enemy's home mining while staying out of range of their starbase.  You're not going to kill any structures, of course, but the economy damage will have a huge effect on the game.  In fact, you can cause so much damage that in some cases it's better to attack the enemy at the same time he attacks you instead of defending yourself from his attacks.

Also, defending your base isn't really about having ships stay behind (at least against a human).  I'ts about scouting your enemy and seeing the attack on the way, so you can either send your full fleet to crush it, or if you don't have enough ships you can attack him somewhere else to draw his attack away from your base until you DO have enough ships.  A computer will send its ships into a losing battle, a human usually won't.

posted on October 1st, 2010, 12:32 am

Ah, dude... PLEASE try to not make "walls of text".  I seriously just run right over them.

 
  I mean I can't really continue to give you advice or anything until you play online.  You're making a major effort to reinforce this idea/argument of yours, but it's still against the AI.  Simple truth is:

  The AI is nothing compared to a human.  AI cannot use tactics.  AI behaves on the "If x, then y" principle and will not help you progress and evolve past a certain point.


  If I were you, I'd stop talking about whether or not an AI strat will work vs. humans and just try it.

posted on October 1st, 2010, 4:52 am

Boggz... I'm sorry  for the 'walls of text'... but don't take it personally, this is just me. You don't have to read them all, or any. If I made it short this is what I would say:

Don't build research stations. Expand immediately. Build four refineries. Build 3 field yards. Build Ships. Build another expansion. Build battle yard. Now build research station. Build more ships. Harass. Build more ships. Attack. Build more ships. Beat the AI.

Don't disregard my idea solely based on the fact that it is against the AI and not humans... I'm not playing against humans... I only play AI. Therefore any strategy I've got is based on that, and to the extent of the gap between human mind and AI principles... clearly humans win. Obviously. 1 v 1 AI can't beat this method. You have to take it to a 1 V 2 AI, or three AI, to make it that there is a challenge. So I'm human, I can beat the AI every time. So I already know AI isn't good (but it's something of a reference point, isn't it?).

But I have stated in title... suggestions or questions. Maybe suggestions was the wrong word. I didn't mean to have it sound like I want you all to replace your strats with mine. Simply listen to the idea, test it out first against an AI in instant action to see what I'm saying. I mean, it's going to work when you play it against the AI... it just works. (lol of course, map size and race are all factors... but Klingons vs non cloaking race.. or she's a charm) But then after you get used to it, just play it against a human online. Like you said to stop talking about it whether it will or will not, and just try it. But I can't. I'm not going to be disappointed or anything if it loses. I would just find that out anyway in my first game where I get beat. ... but regardless of what I do my first game I'll get beat anyway... so really just have to take in stride. Don't really want to be ignored exactly, giving me concrete reasons why this wont work, especially if you test it out and say what happens would help a great deal... but Klingon v Fed.. it's like, I don't see how it can simply just 'not work'.  lol forgive me for my AI limitations. I apologize. But even so, like was pointed out, humans attack minutes quicker than AI... so I'll have to adjust to that.

So I was asking. If youd want to play one game this way just to see hypothetically.. if there isn't any merit to it fine... Also, it only works, well works best, if you choose the race you can play as. Klingons is what this particular strategy is based on. (If you try this out, and are randomly assigned borg.. lol I have no idea what would happen. Maybe I should try it. I just don't like having to rebuild shipyards... so I don't see how it could work. I dunno)

Everyone changes strat based on race for what they do. This is what I do for Klingons.

So maybe try a game out, and see what its like.

If you do, this is what you will say very quickly. The plan sucks against Romulans (to a point, you just change things slightly)... because you can't build a scout station without the research lab. Therefore, romulans will cloak and you won't be able to detect them until you do get a research, and it will need adjustments. But I assume there is always a certain advantage for romulans before a scout station is built. It's just, because I'm purposely not building research, the scout station isn't even on the horizon til after my ships are at healthy numbers. But against Feds... I do have reservations if you just flat out deny any chance... but still I'm not blind. If it just won't work online.. it just won't work. But I'll be trying it either way.

I don't know what to do about these walls of text. I will think about it. But don't relate this to major effort, lol, I just type fast, and this is what it is. I'm just talking... what can I do. You have me at a disadvantage. Otherwise, I would constantly be writing short messages.

But I will take what you say to heart. I really will try to be short (later on, lol which will take more effort than this). And if this does seem like I'm over stressing what I do against AI, and seem like I'm just at it to get you guys to do this... well hopefully I haven't come off like that in a bad way, but really, I'm just wondering.

Also practically speaking... it's just not a good idea to write large texts. Because replying to them is a drag, you can't respond well at all sometimes based on how much is said.

So I'll just stop.

Now.

posted on October 1st, 2010, 8:18 pm

- > tryptic.

Thanks for the tips.

On thing of interest you said to attack the enemy even when they are attacking you. I rarely do this, but have noticed that the AI will retreat from a raid, if my raid is a threat... so it takes care of itself.

But, as I usually play against 2+ AI, I have never given this much consideration. With each AI sending waves, I can't afford to leave my base unprotected, because when I attack AI 1 at their expansion or wherever, AI 2 attacks me...

Unless I attack both at the same time, but this is not easily done, at least I can't do it well, well maybe I should try again, been a while maybe I can figure something out.

I'll need to play that idea out one on one against hard AI or merciless perhaps.  I think I see your point though.

As long as I'm doing more damage and everything, yeah. 

posted on October 1st, 2010, 8:28 pm

Well if you'd like to see evidence of this in a human v human game I'd be more than happy to play .

  I've been on Tunngle quite a bit in the last few days and no one seems to ever be there .

posted on October 1st, 2010, 8:45 pm

Boggz... I'm sorry  for the 'walls of text'... but don't take it personally, this is just me. You don't have to read them all, or any. If I made it short this is what I would say:

Jet... is that you? 

I've been on Tunngle quite a bit in the last few days and no one seems to ever be there .

It's because you smell.  Everyone is hiding from you. 

posted on October 1st, 2010, 11:25 pm

Maybe another way to illustrate this is by the math of the dilithium being spent.

Federation vs Klingon.

(Mayson I think) Federation, let's say, builds the following to start: Two refineries, two shipyards, starfleet engineering, starfleet science, starfleet command, and four miners. Also chasis one and two.

(Martok) Klingons build: Construction ship (I am willing to give this up, I tried it with just the two as suggested, it works... but it is slower to build the stations, so for now, I'll just include it), 8 miners, Four Refineries, Three Field yards. Three central yards.

Federation spend the following:

refineries X2 = 642
miners X4 = 484
Shipyard X2 = 1600
Chasis 1+2 = 1200 (If you don't want to include chasis 2, - 800 or something)
Starfleet Engineering = 400
Starfleet Science = 600
Starfleet Command = 800

Grand total: 5726.

- - -

Klingons spend the following:

Construction ship X1 = 250
Miners X8 = 1400
Refineries X4 = 1500
Fieldyard X3 = 1050
Central Battleyard X3 = 900

Grand total: 5100.

K, so this doesnt include any ships... the ships costs for both races vary. But just looking at the stations, the Klingons spend less, and I'm curious if they finish building their stations before the Federation or not. But if we assume they can do this evenly...

I have one more shipyard, and my miners are outproducing your miners' production by two from the beginning, at least until you expand. Not only this, but we both exceed our initial amounts given of 4000 dilithium. But I should be able to produce my resource intake faster, to build less quicker. But I have to travel to expand also.

This is my thinking. In a lot of ways I think I'm ahead.

The other bonus, is that since you built your research stations, you would likely be spending money on researching  ship bonuses correct? So that is more dilithium that I am not spending and just putting towards ship production.

My ships for a while will be the Qaw'duj, and K'beajq. I don't know what you guys would choose to spend on. Chassis one at least, to get monsoons Intrepids. To reach Akira, need chassis two. Unless I remember wrong. So, against, newtons, sabers,monsoons, intrepids, and perhaps Akira. But my two aren't too bad off until you get your Akiras out... but this would take you time for the research and build time. And at some point, I get my battleyard  and research station for vorchas.

posted on October 1st, 2010, 11:37 pm

Lol ... w/e you want buddy.

  I've been on Tunngle all day.  I'd love to give you first-hand experience playing a human .

I think you'll realize you're wasting energy here

posted on October 1st, 2010, 11:44 pm

Thanks Boggz for offering to try this out. Let me know how it turns out/what you think of it.

If adjustments need to be made like 3rd construction ship, or locations of fieldyards or anything can be arranged.

Another thing I was thinking was to have the first two construction ships build field yard first at home base, and dilithium refinery. The third construction goes right to expansion and builds dilithium refinery there. First ship at home base that finishes its construction builds the trilithium refinery. The other goes to the expansion and joins up building up two more fieldyards there,  and the other refinery.

The one extra stays at home base to continue building research stations in future. Obviously three is for speed.. but absolutely, once those first several stations are built... theyll just be sitting around doing nothing. So if you want, only use two construction ships.

Since you build the field yard first at home base, you can immediately build a central yard, and the Kbeajqs right away and send them to expansion, or do as you like with them. Attack opponent.

dont have internet on the pc to play online yet though sadly... hopefully very soon.

posted on October 1st, 2010, 11:45 pm

haha, indeed maybe I am.

I will try to be on in the next week.

posted on October 1st, 2010, 11:51 pm

Thanks Boggz for offering to try this out. Let me know how it turns out/what you think of it.

If adjustments need to be made like 3rd construction ship, or locations of fieldyards or anything can be arranged.

  Lol well I'm not gonna do it by myself.  I'll play a game with you where you use your strat and I use the common orders that nearly everyone online uses.  We're gonna see if it's viable or not

posted on October 2nd, 2010, 12:01 am

haha, no problem. As you hinted, I would like to try it out first hand to see.

Looking forward to it!

I think no matter what I won't win the game haha, even if I survive the opening, your tactics are probably a lot better and know online to well. I might need a few to see if it is absolutely hopeless, or again if adjustments can improve it.

Best of three maybe?

posted on October 2nd, 2010, 12:48 am

Best of 3 would work fine.  Actually, there tends to be a transition players go through when they go from not playing online to playing online.  New online players have quite a lot of notions as to what's going to work, until that first match.   I was the same way.  I remember my first online match from almost two years ago.  I was sooo sure that I had the perfect borg strategy ready....until it was completely crushed.

So don't worry.  Other players have had similar ideas on things.  But when you watch your progression from point A -> B, you'll find that your thoughts and attitudes toward how the game is played change.   I do guarantee that you'll begin to enjoy your online experience, or we'll give you your money back!