Cloaking and detection

posted on August 12th, 2009, 12:07 pm

they wish to assimilate "relevant technology" which humanity didn't have during Zefram Cochrane's time period. So what incentive is there to assimilate a race on the cusp of warp development? Other than to make a plot for an action film...

If a race is proving annoyingly resistant (and just annoying), it would be better to accept what you have assimilated so far and destroy the rest before the target has adapted too much.

posted on August 12th, 2009, 10:20 pm

Plus because there is almost no resistance, they get a free planet that lasts 3 centuries.

posted on August 12th, 2009, 10:40 pm

Why do the borg dont use a cloak?

Well, lets order the facts:
- They can
- They have the ability to use it for tactical manuvers
- They dont use it

What does it mean, when the borg use the cloak? This would mean, that they need to use it, when they use it. Lets go on with logic:
If a borg cube needs to cloak to bypass planetary defenses, then this would mean, that the cube isnt strong enough, to destroy all of them without getting destroyed. But because the borg search for ways of perfection, this would mean, that the cube is too weak for this task.

Maybe you get the point. There is no "too weak" for the borg, there is only a "too imperfect" for them.
Conclusion: When you dont have the ability to master a situation, get the ability to master it.

A cloaking device may bypass the thread, but it wont solve it. The enemy is still there and even if you surpass the defenses and can conquer the planet itself, the orbital batteries will turn around and destroy the colony you tried to assimilate. You dont destroy the enemy, you dont solve the problem, and you cant to anything while cloaked. So the cube is then only a large scout ship without the ability to do anything. Because when it de-cloaks in order to perform its task, it means: The planetary defenses locket on and attack the cube, with the same result, as it wasnt cloaked from the beginning.

So tell me: Where is the reason to stay cloaked, when if wont give you operational benefits? For the borg, the only thing they do is to assimilate, to save ressources and to reach perfection through adaptation.

The romulans follow a totally changed position.
"Knowledge is might, and an enemy without knowledge of you, dont have to be feared". Romulans stay hidden and live hidden.
Why should the borg do?

posted on August 13th, 2009, 12:01 am

To master the concept of the Borg is close to solve the theodicy.

P:0 The Borg aim for perfection and efficancy (given fact)

P:1 The Borg Collective Consciousness perceives everything within the Borg's sensor range (given fact)
      P:1.1 The Borg Collective Consciousness perceives everything that has been that was in contact to 
              any individual that has been assimilated (given fact)
      P:1.2 Just here for the sake of the subcategory

P:2 The Borg try to assess everything of tactical or technological importance (given fact) + (P:4:1)
    P2.1 Else it is somehow a threat (given fact)
    P2.2 Else they ignore it (given fact)
    P2.3 Else it is miraculously superior to them due to plot (though being a given fact)

P:3 The Borg are able in principle able to adapt to anything (questionable. If not than perfection means being static, which seems self-contradictory OR being an impossible goal)

P:4 The Borg aim to improve their way of improvement (P:0 / P:2)
    P:4:1 They try to assess every way of improcement known to them (P:1)

P:5 The Borg are imperfect (results necessarily of P:0)

P:6 Improvement means being more "perfect" (whatever that may be)

P:7 There are always limited resources
    P7:1 Wasting resources is inefficient
    P7:2 ELSE there is the infinite physical ressource generator (contradicting P7:1) , then:
        P7:2:1 Either "Time" is a finite ressource (which would necessitate expansion etc)
        P7:2:2 OR Expansion is irrelevant (given that Borg are also driven by selfpreservation)

K:1 Cloak is not perceived as being an improvement
  K1.1 Why??? More Options => more Flexibility
  K1.2 Cloaking is no tactical advantage
  K1.3 After strategiv evaluation it costs more than it would contribute.



arf. tired and drunk

posted on August 13th, 2009, 6:26 am

Let's try this (a partial restatement of your points to prove that cloaking is most efficient for the borg):

1. The borg are not perfect, thus they strive to become more perfect
1.1. The borg are not perfectly efficient at performing all tasks, thus they wish to become more efficient
2. The borg collective has access to sensor data on anything within a borg ships sensor range
3. the borg collective contains the entirety of knowledge of any individual they assimilated
3.1. they've most likely assimilated information on cloaking devices
4. it is inefficient to incur damage where unnecessary in the process of achieving goals
4.1. cloaking devices offer a way to avoid damage and reach a desired target with a minimum need to expend energy on regeneration
4.2. it is presumable that with the computing power of the entire collective the borg can significantly refine cloaking devices
4.3. cloaking devices also reduce the chance of being detected by enemy threats while assimilation or annihilation is underway
Thus, for the reasons stated in 4 and subitems (which is backed by items 1 through 3), it is more efficient for borg to use cloak.

Just saying.

posted on August 13th, 2009, 7:52 am

If it is about efficiency one could explain the Borg's lack of cloak (like seen in the shows):

For Borg vessels, it is less efficient to afford the cloaking than taking damage due to vessel size even though cloak being improved/altered by the collective. Maybe cloaking hinders collective connection ... something ... blablabla OR that it is more efficient to strike fear in the hearts of the targets (as a military doctrine)

However this would not explain the small vessels lack of cloak. Yet , I think that Borg would use cloak in principle.

posted on August 14th, 2009, 1:26 pm

Maybe small borg vessels do have cloak, that's why we hardly ever see them in the show. That probe in the delta quadrant might have had a type of cloak that was inefficient angainst federation sensors since they weren't expecting the federation out there. Just an idea.

posted on August 14th, 2009, 7:51 pm

but phase cloak, then nothing can hit them, isnt that more perfect, invulnerability?

posted on August 14th, 2009, 7:57 pm

but thst is not their ultimate goal.  It is to assimilate and expand, not avoid.  You can not assimilate your enemy of you are phase cloaked.

posted on August 28th, 2009, 3:45 pm

Yeah, they're about efficiency of a situation, not energy efficiency...

It's more "efficient" to cloak, bypass defences that would damage you and require energy to repair and strike at the weak point of something, than it is to "hope" (which is an emotional response - something that the Borg don't have) that you'll strike fear into your victims and go in guns 'a blazin.

The Borg, as they are portrayed, don't really make any sense. For example, from their perspective we hear their "voice" communicating with one another. E.g. "A vessel has been detected in grid 013 - Federation starship, Intrepid class U.S.S Voyager". Why would they talk inside their own collective consciousness? They'd just intercept it.

They also tried to assimilate humanity in First Contact by going back in time. How stupid is that? The whole point is that they wish to assimilate "relevant technology" which humanity didn't have during Zefram Cochrane's time period. So what incentive is there to assimilate a race on the cusp of warp development? Other than to make a plot for an action film...

But yeah, whatever, it's an odd discussion to be having. Like I said, it's probably just easier to accept it and enjoy than try to get into the nitty gritty.

I belive that the borg knew that they could not alter the current time line ,and the whole thing was just a plot to get the Enterprise out of the picture. Fleets would fall to the borg, but the group that, the first time defeated them in the end, not even with a weapon, is worthy of a plan that big to eliminate them. Had they suceeded with the dish and called borg reinforcements, they would have arrived at earth, and the Enterprise crew, fooled into beliving that the timeline needed to be saved, when infact would remain the same for the timeline they came from, would stay and defend from the borg, and mabey even try to call in the fleet from their time. A situation that all in all, is current borg loss, 0, current fed loss, the fleet.
Also even if the Enterprise realized, that the timeline would not be altered for them, they porbably would have stayed because of their moral convitions

Or, it was just a realy good movie...