Cloaking and detection

posted on August 11th, 2009, 10:14 pm

Well mime, even if the ship is cloaked its still solid, which is why a cloaked ship would die if it had a colision, so to beam to it, you just need  to know where it is

and i was saying the borg probably would have cloak if theyd assimilated so many races

posted on August 11th, 2009, 10:15 pm

Why should the borg cloak?

Resistance is futile - no need for cloak.
Resistance is futile - no need for shields.

... I think you get the point *g*

posted on August 11th, 2009, 10:28 pm

think they are past the point of using cloak,due to the capabilities they already have
no need to be covert and they adapt to those that do u those sort of techniques

posted on August 11th, 2009, 11:21 pm

All im saying, is that you would think, that theyd be using cloak, i dont want a cannon argument, where because they dont have cloak on the show, everybody makes up reasons, all im saying is, theyve assimilated, you would think that they would be cloaking

posted on August 11th, 2009, 11:46 pm

I don't think they consider cloak an effecant way to attack.  Thay don't need to sneak up on their enemy.  They strike fear into their emeny just by their presence, not to mention the size and power of their ships.  Cloak would be a bad Idea for borg.  They should have a way to counteract the cloak, after assimilating, but they wouldn't use it.  like I said hiding is not their purpose.  It is to assimilate, and that only. 

posted on August 11th, 2009, 11:50 pm

there purpose is to be more perfect, so wouldnt a ship that has a phase cloak, so they cant be hit by any sort of fire, and can fire while cloaked be more perfect, theyd be literally invulnerable to everything

posted on August 12th, 2009, 12:30 am

Ray320 - You say you don't want a canon argument, but that's exactly what you're doing.

The Borg strive for perfection by assimilating information and technology. They do not necessarily use ALL of the technology that they encounter or assimilate for the sake of using it.

They are unrealistic in that regard because having a phasing cloak that they could practically become invincible with would be extremely efficient. But, as you say, it would make them unstoppable. Writers on shows want to make evil enemies imposing, but they have to be beatable, they have to have a weakness. If something is utterly unstoppable, you might as well just give up after all.

It's the same for the Federation too. Voyager alone bought back tonnes of technology that won't be used, such as - Adaptive armor, transphasic torpedoes, quantum slipstream drive, co-axial warp drive, working transwarp drive etc etc etc. They'd be using all the too, but they don't and won't because it doesn't service the canon.

That's the Star Trek paradox see - sometimes it pretends to be cerebral, but really it's enjoyed best when you you leave your brain at the door. Either embrace it as a whole or reject it entirely, you can't cherry pick the bits you want to believe, else the tapestry starts to unravel...

posted on August 12th, 2009, 12:46 am

there purpose is to be more perfect, so wouldnt a ship that has a phase cloak, so they cant be hit by any sort of fire, and can fire while cloaked be more perfect, theyd be literally invulnerable to everything

But they have yet to encounter this tech, and I don't even think the romulans have perfected it.

As far as we know, there are no borg scientists.  They take what works, and not what doesn't.  Thay fix things that are broken, but will sacrifice, or destroy the things that do not better the collective.  They strive for perfection, but as we have seen, cloak is imperfect.  You lose shields, and weapons, and it is detectable.  They may eventually make their own perfect cloak, but In FO I think not.  We don't want an uber race, and tech-assim was gotton rid of.

posted on August 12th, 2009, 1:22 am

I dotn want an uber powerful borg in fleet ops, however you did point out that they had not encountered it, that actually would be true, unless they assimilated anybody with knowledge of the pegasus project, and or the kligon fire while cloak deal.......

posted on August 12th, 2009, 1:29 am

Even then, they might see it as a futile attempt, but then...they might do alot of things.

posted on August 12th, 2009, 1:50 am

Ok canon is canon and game is game. If we want to make this game as realistic and true to the shows as posible then....

1. No 2 ships of the same class would be the same or even equal.
2. Borg would first be easily destroyed then invinceable then easily overpower then invinceable again ect....
3. Ships would explode randomly due to negligence and sabotage
4. There would be far less variety in ships.
5. The feds would have the bigest diversity of ships.
6. All weapons would behave completely different at different times.
7. There would be no phase cloak for the borg to assimilate because picard had it destroyed(i think).
8. The feds would probly have a diplomacy special weapon that did absolutely crap.
\\\\\\
This game is base upon an rpg not canon!!! Yes it has our imput but this game is not ment to be canon but a good game. A game that the many can enjoy not the few or the one.

Ok thats the end of that point.

The borg are about EFFICENCY. Cloaking consumes lots of energy. Also its more efficent from a borg perspective to aproach their target in the open...that way the strike fear into their target and hope they surender. Also borg do not bother with inferior technology or beings....they only bother with targets they deem a threat or that would add value to the collective.

OK I may have forgotten the topic now.....lol

posted on August 12th, 2009, 1:54 am

I agree with this assesment.

[mimesot]

posted on August 12th, 2009, 9:25 am

Last edited by mimesot on August 12th, 2009, 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

Well mime, even if the ship is cloaked its still solid, which is why a cloaked ship would die if it had a colision, so to beam to it, you just need  to know where it is

Why should it not be solid? That statement lacks of any logic. Noone said it wouldnt be solid. Further that wouldnt change a thing. There's no reason you shouldnt be able to beam into a fluid or gasous object.  Why do you always give me reason to belive, you simply are not able to make conclusive statements and derivations. That unfortunate presentation just makes me despise your notion, and I feel really sorry for that, as I always appreciate sensible critizism to my beliefs. 

The reasons for no beaming while cloaked are:
(I use my own idea of the cloak, that i believe to work in theory, assuming spacefolding was reslistic and to be as canon as possible as well. Feel free to suggest a better, conclusive solution! C'mon!)
In basic the cloaking device usilizes the same mechanisms as a shield. It creates a space distortion - even slightly visible for old klingon cloaks - that bends all light (and all space-adjactant entities like all EM-waves, matter) around the vessel. Further there is a mechanism that annihilates all radiation that would leave the cloak-field at the critical locations (normally hidden trough the shield-frequency in case of shields, which a cloak does not have. Otherwise it could be dedected trough the emission of gravity- and/or subspace-waves ). As beaming needs a beam-like transmission (at best a spreading port for a spacetime- or subspace-channel, but we dont ever get any info about the mechanism) this tranmission cannot pass that spacetime and/or subspace barrier, the same way as the beaming cannot pass the shields. The interesting question on contrary is, why can we hit a cloakd vessel at all. The reason is, that the annihilation-mechanism is a fine-tuned stuff and not made for annihilating TW to PW energies, thus if targetted correctly or having a device that can recalibrate the destinations direction.

In short: Small amounts of energy cannot travel throu the cloak, so does the beaming "beam". 

So feel free to tell me a different more conclsive counter.

posted on August 12th, 2009, 11:13 am

The borg are about EFFICENCY. Cloaking consumes lots of energy. Also its more efficent from a borg perspective to aproach their target in the open...that way the strike fear into their target and hope they surender. Also borg do not bother with inferior technology or beings....they only bother with targets they deem a threat or that would add value to the collective.

OK I may have forgotten the topic now.....lol

Yeah, they're about efficiency of a situation, not energy efficiency...

It's more "efficient" to cloak, bypass defences that would damage you and require energy to repair and strike at the weak point of something, than it is to "hope" (which is an emotional response - something that the Borg don't have) that you'll strike fear into your victims and go in guns 'a blazin.

The Borg, as they are portrayed, don't really make any sense. For example, from their perspective we hear their "voice" communicating with one another. E.g. "A vessel has been detected in grid 013 - Federation starship, Intrepid class U.S.S Voyager". Why would they talk inside their own collective consciousness? They'd just intercept it.

They also tried to assimilate humanity in First Contact by going back in time. How stupid is that? The whole point is that they wish to assimilate "relevant technology" which humanity didn't have during Zefram Cochrane's time period. So what incentive is there to assimilate a race on the cusp of warp development? Other than to make a plot for an action film...

But yeah, whatever, it's an odd discussion to be having. Like I said, it's probably just easier to accept it and enjoy than try to get into the nitty gritty.

posted on August 12th, 2009, 11:48 am

Well said!

I think that abandoning sensibility and realism is indeed a way of keeping it. But then we have to stand to our decision, and say it is ridiculous but we like it that way.