The Borg across series/movies

posted on December 26th, 2010, 8:13 pm

I'm sure that they had analyzed the weapons, but they couldn't find a way to adapt because of the technological advances in the weapons.

  Or because Voyager had JUST established that the Borg cannot adapt to what they cannot assimilate.

  Something TNG was not so stupid as to propose.

  Although (and I know I'm just derailing this further), TNG did do one thing wrong which I might consider 'jumping the shark' by establishing an enemy so powerful and basically invulnerable to your weapons.  It's hard to go from that to anything else and take it seriously.

  Voyager got one thing right in the sense that the Borg are a bit more vulnerable if you are given time to pre-plan your strategy, pre-set your weapons, yadda yadda, but the overall traits established by TNG are lost after First Contact.  I think Voyager set a better precedent for Borg as a species in that they are less resistant, but made their overall menace a joke.

[Tyler]

posted on December 26th, 2010, 8:21 pm

Last edited by Tyler on December 26th, 2010, 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

That's not how Scorpion put it. They didn't say they cannot adapt because they're too advanced, they specifically said they cannot adapt because they cannot assimilate their ships. I believe the quote was "What they cannot assimilate, they cannot understand" or something to that effect.

That's more than just 'inconsistency', that's something the entire plot needs to work.

Ninja'd by the Boggz... First contact did a better job than Voyager at it. There, they were monsters that could be stopped with many losses (or an asspull like shooting the toilets) but it was still only a single ship. Voyager had the entire species, which was not a helpful move.

posted on December 26th, 2010, 8:37 pm

When I first heard about Voyager, I had visions of episodes where this ship would be in tense cat and mouse situations trying to slip past the Borg.  Putting to use those TNG techs like Metaphasic shields that would let them dive close to stars to escape pursuit after shaking a holding beam.

I pictured significant episodes about attempts to patch, jury rig, or repair damage, possibly damage incurred in a narrow escape from the Collective.

Instead, we get large empires of people roughly equivalent to the Orion (predatory and unscrupulous) that for some reason aren't assimilated even given their relatively close proximity to the Borg.  We get races that shoot time torpedoes at you.  And we get -emotional BORG-.  At least the Queen in First Contact seemed to be largely emotionless, but faking it to twist those around her.  The one in Voyager made stupid decisions based upon a grudge against Janeway.

In TNG, after scanning the cube, They declared that ALL systems were at minimum quadruple redundant and decentralized.  Shelby pointed out that due to this redundancy, a Borg vessel could lose 77% of it's total mass and remain FULLY FUNCTIONAL.  It would lose capacity at 78% destruction.

Just that bit alone highlights just how reduced the Borg are in Voyager.

posted on December 28th, 2010, 9:21 pm

Bad example; Command codes are not encryption, they are very different things. Command codes are like passwords, encrytion is an actual lockout by ecrypting data. Attempting to hack an encrypted computer is like trying to read a french book without knowing french.

Command codes often get bypassed by races lower than the Borg superbrain.

How about you read something correctly before commenting, i didnt say command codes are encripted i said data encripted the command codes as seen in the movie watch the film then tell me im wrong.
If they are encripted the borg cannot crack them also as seen in the movie.

posted on December 28th, 2010, 9:42 pm

Or at least it'll take the borg a while to crack the encryption key.

And I agree with silent the borg were massivley nerfed after TNG, however in flops terms the TNG cube was a command cube, so that could basicly be their uber pwn ship with the rest being less effective (just being the devils advocate here.)

Yes, we did see an adaptor in TNG as well, but I dont think it was ever established if that was a borg ship or just an assimd vessel. Since it was only seen once, I'd opt for some ship that had been assimd a long time ago, or possibly several such ships.

posted on December 28th, 2010, 10:37 pm

Didn't the Borg want to give the "adaptor" a nanoprobe detonator on its outer hull during their war with Species-8472.  They called it a "multi-kinetic neutrino mine."  The Borg probably built them, but they never got the nanoprobes modified to the specifications required to fight Species-8472.  Plus, I doubt they would do much good now since Species-8472 now know how they work.

I don't think that the Borg were "nerfed" at all.  They found ways to destroy the Borg that the Borg weren't expecting.  Such as collapsing a transwarp conduit.  If the Borg thought that the conduit was going to be collapsed, they wouldn't have pursued the Delta Flyer.

I'm sure the Borg didn't anticipate that Data would infiltrate the collective.  Otherwise, they would have put access barriers to prevent unwanted connections.  The Borg are terrible on wireless network security.  Plus, if someone knows the workings of a Borg ship, it would be easy to destroy it just by firing at the right location.  The Borg probably adapted to that as well.

I'm sure that the Borg wouldn't fall for a torpedo being beamed aboard their vessel again.  They would probably deflect the transporter if it was tried again.  Beaming a torpedo aboard a vessel being tractored into a sphere was clever.  The Borg probably detected the transport, but didn't pay attention to what was being transported on the vessel.  They'll probably pay attention next time.

Plus, the Borg never anticipate that their victims have been infected with a virus or is producing a virus designed to destroy them.  If they did, they would be a lot more hesitant to assimilate their victims.  Plus, since each virus is different, it's impossible to adapt to.  However, the Borg should check the vessels database before assimilating the ship to see whether or not the vessel is a trap.

Who could have anticipated a temporal incursion with technology that's nothing like anything that you have encountered before.  And armor that is nothing like anything you have ever seen before.  It would take forever to adapt to them just by sensor readings.  Which would be greatly hindered by the virus that just infected the collective.

[Tok`ra]

posted on December 28th, 2010, 10:48 pm

Last edited by Tok`ra on December 28th, 2010, 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wow a TCR Ramble in reply! :p


....... were to start.......

Didn't the Borg want to give the "adaptor" a nanoprobe detonator on its outer hull during their war with Species-8472.  They called it a "multi-kinetic neutrino mine."  The Borg probably built them, but they never got the nanoprobes modified to the specifications required to fight Species-8472.  Plus, I doubt they would do much good now since Species-8472 now know how they work.

I dont recall ever seeing the adapter in Voyager..... If you mean in A2.. that doesnt really count.

I don't think that the Borg were "nerfed" at all.  They found ways to destroy the Borg that the Borg weren't expecting.  Such as collapsing a transwarp conduit.  If the Borg thought that the conduit was going to be collapsed, they wouldn't have pursued the Delta Flyer.

In TNG, a single cube wipes out 50ish Federation ships with ease.

In Voyager, a single small vessel evades tactical cubes at will.

Yeah, not nerfed at all..... 

I'm sure the Borg didn't anticipate that Data would infiltrate the collective.  Otherwise, they would have put access barriers to prevent unwanted connections.  The Borg are terrible on wireless network security.  Plus, if someone knows the workings of a Borg ship, it would be easy to destroy it just by firing at the right location.  The Borg probably adapted to that as well.

Im sure that with all of the people they'd assimilated, they got at least one hacker, and from that could realize just how vulnerable their box was, and could from there easily secure it without having any effect on efficiency.

I'm sure that the Borg wouldn't fall for a torpedo being beamed aboard their vessel again.  They would probably deflect the transporter if it was tried again.  Beaming a torpedo aboard a vessel being tractored into a sphere was clever.  The Borg probably detected the transport, but didn't pay attention to what was being transported on the vessel.  They'll probably pay attention next time.

The borg have ignored transporter beams for quite some time, since TNG. As for deflecting a torpedo being beamed onboard, they would have to detect what it is once it finished beaming, by then it is really too late. In that bit you utterly miss who the borg are. They as a character (because aside from a few examples the borg as a whole are a single character in essence) have a massive ego and view attempts against them as irrelvent. Only after repeated failures do they start to fix things. They're kind of like Goverment in that regard.

Plus, the Borg never anticipate that their victims have been infected with a virus or is producing a virus designed to destroy them.  If they did, they would be a lot more hesitant to assimilate their victims.  Plus, since each virus is different, it's impossible to adapt to.  However, the Borg should check the vessels database before assimilating the ship to see whether or not the vessel is a trap.

They have no reason to do so, the whole reasoning behind that plot was to keep the collective from realizing what was happening or showing any real interest in the planet, just the ships with an infected person sent out.

Soon as the Borg know whats going on, and determine that it is a real threat, they adapt to it. Thats how they work.

Who could have anticipated a temporal incursion with technology that's nothing like anything that you have encountered before.  And armor that is nothing like anything you have ever seen before.  It would take forever to adapt to them just by sensor readings.  Which would be greatly hindered by the virus that just infected the collective.

Thats the whole point of that episode. 'I HAX. U PWND. LOL'.


Poor script writing ? Yeah. But thats why I had stopped watchign Voyager years previously.

  Or because Voyager had JUST established that the Borg cannot adapt to what they cannot assimilate.

  Something TNG was not so stupid as to propose.

  Although (and I know I'm just derailing this further), TNG did do one thing wrong which I might consider 'jumping the shark' by establishing an enemy so powerful and basically invulnerable to your weapons.  It's hard to go from that to anything else and take it seriously.

  Voyager got one thing right in the sense that the Borg are a bit more vulnerable if you are given time to pre-plan your strategy, pre-set your weapons, yadda yadda, but the overall traits established by TNG are lost after First Contact.  I think Voyager set a better precedent for Borg as a species in that they are less resistant, but made their overall menace a joke.

I pretty much agree, however I think the one thing Voyager got right was having the borg be vulnerable.

Powerful, resullent, redundent, adaptave, all of that yes, but if your weapons are powerful enough adaptation ceases to matter and becomes damage mitigation.

And in part thats what the point was in Voyager, the Federation had advanced a tad more, and adaptation slowly turned towards mitigation.

posted on December 29th, 2010, 2:03 am

The Borg are terrible on wireless network security

back when they were created WEP was still good enough

I dont recall ever seeing the adapter in Voyager..... If you mean in A2.. that doesnt really count.

that's debatable, the borg were talking about a multi-kinetic stupid bomb at one point, and the graphic that appeared on screen looked kinda like the ship from descent (now called an adaptor outside of canon). thats all we know, its not much to go on, so it can tenuously support many different conclusions.

In TNG, a single cube wipes out 50ish Federation ships with ease.

39. so 40ish

In Voyager, a single small vessel evades tactical cubes at will.

intrep is medium sized

posted on December 29th, 2010, 2:12 am

A single torpedo, unless it's some kind of moon-buster or something equally deranged (and that the mere manufacture of is probably a war crime) shouldn't do much more to a borg sphere or cube than indicate that you are attacking, and need a dose of cutting beam and tractor, or even a torpedo.  Multiply redundant should strike again there.  You have to do serious damage across the vast majority of the vessel to actually kill it.  That's borg design methodology, just like there's no such thing as an important drone, because they're all multiple redundant too.

Plus, the Borg have fought the Romulans, (and cut a swath through some of their border stations on the way to earth).  That makes me absolutely certain that explosives have been beamed aboard many times. 

Remember what it took to make a bloody scout cube crash in the episode where Hugh was introduced.

posted on December 29th, 2010, 2:17 am

That tactical cube let Voyager go.

Even if a vessel is redundant, it won't do you any good if an explosion consumes the entire vessel at once.

posted on December 29th, 2010, 2:55 am

Actually (about the adaptor in VOY), there is one shown on the screen display when 7 of 9 is explaining how the Borg want to make a massively destructive mine out of the special Nanoprobes.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdrf4odHGlU&NR=1[/youtube]

Right around 2:20 I believe you can see the Adaptor on the screen.  Not sure exactly what the point was ... I think they were actually using that design as a mine itself ... not a ship.

posted on December 29th, 2010, 2:58 am

some people say the graphic was of the ship that lays the mines... some people say its the mine itself...

picking an answer requires a leap of faith, since both are supported by fact.

posted on December 29th, 2010, 12:14 pm

How about you read something correctly before commenting, i didnt say command codes are encripted i said data encripted the command codes as seen in the movie watch the film then tell me im wrong.
If they are encripted the borg cannot crack them also as seen in the movie.

I read it, and the way you put it looked like you were confusinng the two. Data didn't encrypt the the command codes, he encrypted the entire main computer.

posted on December 29th, 2010, 3:25 pm

I read it, and the way you put it looked like you were confusinng the two. Data didn't encrypt the the command codes, he encrypted the entire main computer.

Haha no he encripted the command the codes... then he locked out the main computer.

posted on December 29th, 2010, 3:27 pm

Last time I watched it he 'locked out the main computer with an encryption code'. No mention of command codes.