StarTrek shields ... poll

posted on April 30th, 2009, 10:25 pm

Last edited by mimesot on April 30th, 2009, 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

First, thank you for that information! :thumbsup:

Unfortunatly I could't find much information there. The only useful statement is, that gravitons are involved. This leads to the assumprion that option one may be somehow canonical. On the other hand this sparse info makes me believe that even StarTrek producerd didn't ever think about how it may work, and shifted the explanation into unexplored territory, which means they have no plans themselfes.

The second unhappy discovery is, that eve the action of absorbing e.g. a phaser is not described.

The final unknown aspect is, that there is no info, if that system has a steady shielding, or a shield that locally concentrates to absorb an incoming projectile/beam.

PS: Local concentration to intercept an incoming beam is stupid, becaus a eam is only seen when it's already there, and thus has done some damage. Starfleet would be crazy to rely ok such technologies.

PPS: Where does that shliel glow come from, which expands on the bubble upon hit.

PPPS: If the gravitons mean, that space around the ship is expanded (and somwhere else contracted for reasons of continuity), so projectiles need arbitrary times longer to get to the hull, and the shield is active all around the ship, the ship would se itself infinitly far away from the rest of the universe. Is this observed?

If neither PS, nor PPPS are valid, we have to think about a different concept of how to utilize gravity for shielding. Any suggestions appreciated!

P4S: If he technology just works by expanding room the e.g. torpedo would fly towards the ship forever. By the time there will be a shield of old torpedos around the vessel. lol Expandind is clearly the wrong way of using gravitons.

posted on April 30th, 2009, 11:14 pm

Last edited by Lt.Cdr.White on April 30th, 2009, 11:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Technical Manual by Rick Sternbach and Mike Okuda has indeed an explanation on how the shields work (written in an in-universe style, if I remember it right). After all, the TM was intended to be a guide line for writers of the show, as well.

I can even remember how they said that an object that hit the shields and bumped from it would "think" it went directly straight and the ship moved instead. Something along this line.

I have the German version of that manual and will have a look at what they exactly said.

Edit:

Ok, it's chapter "11.8 Deflector shields".

I'll try to translate it.

"Like most force field devices, the deflector system produces a confined zone of highly focussed spacial distortion in which a high-energy graviton field is sustained.

[...]

If a disturbance happens, the field energy is concentrated at the point of impact and generates a strong and closely confined spacial distortion.

It would seem to an observer onboard the ship as if the object bounced off from the shield. A zero-dimensional observer on the intruding object would conceive his/her trajectory to be unchanged while the ship would have suddenly changed its position."

So after all, "gravimetric process, that locally stretches space" gets pretty close.

posted on May 1st, 2009, 3:21 pm

Hey, thanks for your information.

That news are bad, as I just discovered in my last post, that spacial distortion has some unhappy consequences. Especially the one which "produces a confined zone of highly focussed spacial distortion".

mimesot wrote:PS: Local concentration to intercept an incoming beam is stupid, becaus a beam is only seen when it's already there, and thus has done some damage. Starfleet would be crazy to rely ok such technologies.

Didn't Rick Sternbach and Mike Okuda see that most obvoius problem. Maybe there is some aditional enchancment, you didn't mention yet, which ansorbs the beams damage in the first few milliseconds any system would need to react?

Or does the hull take that amoutnt of power without being damaged at all?

Do thes say anything about the shield-effect, which I cannot reason from the shields working?

The Black Baron

3577 posts

posted on May 1st, 2009, 4:27 pm

U've decided to make a science manual? Damn Im looking forward to that

Just a suggestion though, if you can find any suitable explanation for how something works, just make up you own

It is your manual after all and it does talk about the FO universe, so I dont think many people would have a problem with that, especially if you came up with something which could be theoretically possible

Good luck on your writing

posted on May 1st, 2009, 4:40 pm

Last edited by mimesot on May 1st, 2009, 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yeah, but I will not have time to write one soon. Perhaps in 3 weeks I will start. Before that I have to do another exam, otherwise the finance department will behead me.

I greatly appreciate your opinion. Nevertheless I like to have strong backing by the community and especially the mods. I surly don't wanna attract their resentment by proclaiming technologies that can't suffice the mods and communities indea of their features. Additionally it shall underline the descent reputation of FO.

I'd like to start my manual with a section which enlists all wrong assumptions, that provide explanation of StarTrek's most popular features and are thus inevitable.

The other sections shall describe the technologies utilized in FO, and those have to be derived from existing physical models and the wrong assumptions. My greatest aim is to use "This is not possible even with the admissions from above" or "It will have a different effect as in the game" as seldomly as possible. I also don't want the guide to make the mods look foolish, or evolve apart from the game, because of different notion than the mods.

The shields are a very critical point, because there are so many shield-effects, so I need a theory which is conform to most of them and conform with possible future ideas for shield effects.

posted on May 1st, 2009, 5:50 pm

Last edited by Lt.Cdr.White on May 1st, 2009, 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The chapter is longer and includes things like deflector grid and power supply and such stuff.
I just quoted part of the introduction which has the "scientific" explanation of the concept.

From how I understood it, there is a closed energy field around the whole ship (mentioned to be relatively close fitting to the hull shape).

I believe this constant field absorbs / deflects the initial impact but then the field is concentrated at the impact point (as described) and creates the well known bubble effect this way.

Once the energy to be absorbed is higher than the amount of power put into the shields, the shields collapse.

Somehow the fact that shields weaken must be taken into account. This means it seems they have to be "charged" not simply "powered" to work.

Edit: (talking about the impact of an object): "... and is usually acompanied by a momentary discharge of Cherenkov radiation which is often appearing as a blue-colored flash."

"The nominal system output is 1152 MW graviton load. The momentary peak load of a single generator can rise for a maximum of 170 milliseconds to almost 473 000 MW. In battle readiness state up to seven generators can be simultaneously brought to use being phase-locked and thus generating an uninterrupted yield of 2688 MW with a maximal primary energy dissipation rate of over 7.3 x 10^5 kW."

Then they're talking about operational frequencies and how this makes it possible to adapt to dangerous parts of the spectrum while keeping sensors working etc. During cruise mode, about 5% output is sustained to protect the crew from objects and dangerous radiation, in battle readiness mode the output is risen to at least 85%. In defense mode, it's brought to maximum.

The rest of the chapter is rather uninteresting, I think.

posted on May 1st, 2009, 7:46 pm

Last edited by mimesot on May 1st, 2009, 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wow really interesting! Thanks a lot.

It is a nice idea (Yet I don't have an opinion if that may be possible) to enlarge the distence between ship and projectile/beam, but what does it help? Lt.Cdr.White's informations provide a lot of content to be discussed, so I'll place the most important questions now. Please correct me if I make any wrong assumptions. Everyone is invited to participate in that discussion.

Beams:

A beam comes in, and is dedected when it's front hits the ship/constant field.

1a) What constant field is it?
1b) How does that field dissipate/absorb/deflect (I'll use d/a/d from now on) that incoming energy?

The concentrating graciton field elongates the way for the beam, so the beam is stretched, thus it's energy density lowers. We have more time to d/a/d that energy, which is good. But the energy will not disappear just from having a longer way.

1c) How do we d/a/d the slowly ariving energy now?

Pulses:

Pulses of pure energy would travel with light speed. We always see pulses visibly flying towards the opponent at quite low speed.

2a) What does a pulse disruptor/phaser consist of?

Now, as it is that slow we can dedect it and concentrate the shields before we are hit. This is a big advantage. We have nearly infinite time before the ulse reaches us. But still...

2b) How do we d/a/d it with our shieds?

Torpedos:

They are of sub-luminar speed in FO and in every space-battles I have seen before, so they can be treated like pulses. I read that torpedos can be fired off at warp-speed.

If they don't have an own warp-drive they would get cought inthe warp-bubble like asteroinds do sometimes. This leads me to the ecpectation that they are warp-capable themselves. An awful idea, because it could not be dedected whithout tachyon scan (if it even emitts tachyons, which i doubt), and thus it is impossible to react in time (battle distances are quite close in measures of light seconds). As a result the torpedo explodes at the low constant field (see 1a) and I have no idea how the energy will be d/a/d there (see 1b)

3a) What is your opinion on warp-speed-torps?

Mass dirvers and pure energy pulses:
I know that these are not used in StarTrek but for those, there would arise the same problems as for Warp-speed-torpedos.

4a) What could be done about pure energy pulses.
4b) Depending on the d/a/d mechanism: How are gamma-rays treated?
4c) What could be done about masses at velocities near light speed?

Neutrons:
Newtrons are absorbed by the hull if it is thick enough / the neutron density is low enough. Neutrons are really dangerous for living beings even in small amounts.

5a) What to do about neutrons? How thick are ship's hulls and windows?

I have no idea about most of them at the moment myself, so I'm happy about any suggestions!

posted on May 1st, 2009, 10:05 pm

Last edited by Lt.Cdr.White on May 1st, 2009, 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I think you should get the Technical Manual as it covers most areas.

Also, it puts up rules that have been violated in the show several times.

In fact, the ONLY weapons that should be able to be fired at Warp speeds are Photon / Quantum torpedoes. They specifically state that Phasers cannot be fired at Warp speeds.

Yes, Photon torpedoes have a miniature M/AM reactor and they "adopt" the Warp field that they were fired in + additional speed accumulated through the torpedo tube launch mechanism.

After all, the whole explosive energy of Photon torpedoes is produced by a sudden M/AM reaction.

Concerning phasers: The phaser beams consist of so called "rapid nadion particles". You could look that up on google perhaps.

Also, check Ex Astris Scientia for much more and complete discussion on those topics. I'm sure you'll find all info you need there for free: Ex Astris Scientia - Bernd Schneider's Star Trek Site

Concerning the shields again, just take the info given in the TM.

There is a spacial distortion field and there are graviton particles. So after all, it's like a combination of a distortion in space-time and gravitation.

This seems to "deflect" all objects or energy hitting the shields, thus the name "deflector" shields. Something like a shell made of tractor beams... It appears to diffuse energy and particles and sends more solid objects flying into space again or breaks them up.

I think the aura of disruptors or phasers hitting shields is in fact the energy being diffused into space.

However, I simply can't translate the whole TM, that's a little to much.

Concerning Neutrons:

Neutrons are part of all complex atoms. (Deuterium upwards). Neutron radiation is dangerous, yes. Neutron radiation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia But Neutrons have a mass and are solid everyday subatomic particles that should be easily deflected just through the gravitational force caused by the gravitons. Check the part about protection from neutron radiation in the wikipedia article.

Neutron stars for example are based on the fact that neutrons have a mass. Neutron star - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Edit: It seems Neutrons outside of atoms are not stable and last only up to about 900 seconds. Also, gravitation generally has only light effects, while electromagnetic fields have much stronger effects... well, just look it up in Wikipedia. They have slightly more mass than protons and when they decay, they emit beta radiation and end up as a normal proton. Neutron - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

posted on May 1st, 2009, 11:13 pm

Lt.Cdr.White wrote:I think you should get the Technical Manual as it covers most areas.

Well I think I should. On the other hand I'm sure I will annoyed by incompleteness anywhere it gets interesting. :pinch:

Lt.Cdr.White wrote:Also, it puts up rules that have been violated in the show several times.

This gives us a chance to violate that rules in FO too to obtain further realism.

Lt.Cdr.White wrote:Yes, Photon torpedoes have a miniature M/AM reactor and they "adopt" the Warp field that they were fired in + additional speed accumulated through the torpedo tube launch mechanism.

An M/AM reactor per se only grants energy supply, not warp capability, but I assume you mean it has internal warp coils too. Nevertheless that leads to a the really horrible assumption, that they can be blocked by the small constant shield only, which makes such torpedos way too deadly. :'(

Lt.Cdr.White wrote:After all, the whole explosive energy of Photon torpedoes is produced by a sudden M/AM reaction.

Concerning phasers: The phaser beams consist of so called "rapid nadion particles". You could look that up on google perhaps.

I'm quite aware of that. Thank you anyway. My personal source is memory-alpha.

Lt.Cdr.White wrote:Also, check Ex Astris Scientia for much more and complete discussion on those topics. I'm sure you'll find all info you need there for free: Ex Astris Scientia - Bernd Schneider's Star Trek Site

Wow, what a great site. If you trust it, I will do that too. Thanks!

Lt.Cdr.White wrote:There is a spacial distortion field and there are graviton particles. So after all, it's like a combination of a distortion in space-time and gravitation.

You are not toooo familiar with theory of relativity at and particle physics, are you? As the graviton is the (hypothetical) interection-particle of gravitation and gravitation is distortion of spacetime, they cannot be treated as different features. A 'combination' of those is a meaningless term. If the constant field was such a field that creates space around the ship in a homogenous bubble, the ship is just farther away from the whole universe. Sensors are equally slower as incoming beams, thus that field is of no use. It has to do something additional to just creating space. Something that dissipates/absorbs/deflects energy.

Lt.Cdr.White wrote:This seems to "deflect" all objects or energy hitting the shields, thus the name "deflector" shields. Something like a shell made of tractor beams... It appears to diffuse energy and particles and sends more solid objects flying into space again or breaks them up.

That's another peace of information about what shields do. Well I'm quite familiar with that. As my last question aimed on how shields do what they do, a reason for the shields behavoir, that info doesn't help the matter at all. Sorry. :sweatdrop:

Lt.Cdr.White wrote:I think the aura of disruptors or phasers hitting shields is in fact the energy being diffused into space.

Agreed!

We miht start an additional discussion on how the shields energy-diffiusion might look like for different shield models. Maybe later on, I don't want to get off my own topic.

Lt.Cdr.White wrote:Concerning Neutrons:.......

What?

You may not now me, because I'm rather new to the forum (registred since July08, FO-fan eversince

) , but I usually do not ask questions about physics that can be answered by a look into wiki. :lol:

Neutron beams can be slowed down especially by small atoms (hydrogen up to carbon) which isn't valid for duanium nor the other ST-emenents, and there are also no neutron absorbers (boron, cadmium) mentioned in any sources, so crew members are pretty unprotected, if there was a neutron blast. The shields may be capable to handlethat too, idk. :ermm:

posted on May 1st, 2009, 11:19 pm

Since I don't find any information anywhere on how shield work in detail, it seems to be up to your (come on everybody !!!) creativity and logics to bring up proper solutions. I surly can't figure out all psooible questions by my own. Counter-proofs are accepted as well.