Century Class project

posted on December 22nd, 2010, 7:52 pm

First off, what does POTD mean?

Secondly, why should I continue this project when there has already been one incident involving this vessel?  Plus, the wrong person gave permission to get this project underway.  Unless JD Curtis gives permission for this project to resume, this project is cancelled.  And the vessel will be conformed to his specifications, no one else's.

I'll work on the Tereanan Empire in the mean time.

posted on December 22nd, 2010, 8:01 pm

potd = picture of the day.

posted on December 22nd, 2010, 9:41 pm

The thing is, we are not porting the model.  We are editing an edit.  It has been done 4 or more times since the original port and there has been no issue before. I trust the judgement of those at starbase 34 and filefront and they hosted/put the model in their mods and they are very good at pulling things down if there is an issue.  If you want out TCR thats fine, I just don't see it as an issue unless DJ says so. So far there have been multiple mods with this ship in it for a2 and DJ has never said anything.  I have seen him raise issues on other games/sites, but not this one.

[Anonymous]

posted on December 23rd, 2010, 2:31 am

Last edited by Anonymous on December 23rd, 2010, 2:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

My opinion about the issue with the Century and the Valiant Classes.

The original design belongs to DJ's authority so you have to give credits to him. You also need to give him credits for the textures as I only edited them to fit to the Armada II model.
However, both the Century and the Valiant models for Armada II are my work and so they belong to me. If you want to port the ships from Armada II to FO, you'll need my permission which would be granted with the conditions of giving proper credits both DJ and me. That means that you would have to state in the readme that this is only a port, the original one was done by me, based on DJ's work.
Permission of porting includes the necessary edits in the model (adding glowies), the textures (if the lightmap would be used a different way) and the ODF, because they HAS TO BE DONE for properly porting the ship, but excludes changing the model or changing the textures more than it's necessary. This is nothing to do with DJ as long as you give him the deserved credits, as you're using my work.
This means that porting my Armada II Century to FO - which is the case in the current Century project - needs only an expressed permission from me, but needs to be credited both to me and DJ. So the project may continue.

For making a kitbash - which is the case of the Defiant Type Mod - is very similar. The model for Armada II was made by me, so if you want to change it, you need only expressed permission from me. In this case permission includes the modifying of the model, adding glows and the necessary edits of the textures. You have to state in your readme that your work is a kitbash of my original, which was based on DJ's work.
If Dircome would restart his project and he would ask me for permission (which would be granted) he would be allowed to realize his vision. So the project may be restarted and finished.

Both projects involve models which are built by me and so they're my authority. They would use textures which I used so if I give permission to port/kitbash my work, it's obvious that the permission includes the use of the textures used by my models or they couldn't be appropriately used.
It would be a more delicate situation of someone would want to make a retexture for the ships, but it's not the case here.

Also, you have to distinct a port from a conversion!
Porting a model/ship to another game means that you don't change the model and only make the textures fit to the other game (i.e.: converting them from .bmp to .tga).
Converting a model/ship to another game means that you create a new model and make new textures/edit the existing ones so they would fit to the new model.
In the first case, you didn't do anything original with the model or the textures and a third party would need permission from the original author. In the second case, you made an original model and (half-)original textures, and a third party needs only your permission for using/kitbashing/adding to a mod/editing the ship, as it's your work. But still, you'll have to give the proper credits to the original author. This stands as long as the third party stays on the same platform that your conversion uses (in our case this stands, as FleetOps uses Armada II, but it wouldn't stand of someone would want to port the ships to Legacy).

The Century and Valiant Classes for Armada II are conversions and not edits or ports.

I will stick to this opinion and will act accordingly from now on.

posted on December 23rd, 2010, 3:11 am

I agree.  I will continue the century project and will comply with all stated rules unless DJ himself comes out and says we can't.  What comes with this is that if that were to happen, none of this is my fault, it is yours.    (jk)

Thank you for clarifying, and I hope everyone is happy now.

posted on December 23rd, 2010, 9:35 am

As I wrote here:

Actually, k_merse, DJ's wording is correct. "Conversion" is the same as "port" in this situation, as the definition of "convert" means changing, not creating. What you've done, though, is a "remake", creating a new one from scratch, which is not banned.

But if DJ does not want you to release this, it would be very bad tact to do so. Not against the rules, but you should respect his wishes.

Sorry, but you can't just "redefine" the English language to get around rules like that. =P

Just ask him anyway, it's polite, respectful, and will be a nice thing to do in the long run.

posted on December 23rd, 2010, 10:17 am

I have to contradict you. If you make a new model, then it's yours. If you used something as a reference when you created it, you have to give credits. But if someone wants to use your work, why should he ask for permission from the original author? Just imagine: You want to use a ship for your A2 mod which was converted from BC, but even that model was based on someone else's work. Then you would have to ask for three permissions? One from the Armada II converter, one from the one who made it for BC and one from the original author? How long should you follow that chain back?

[Atlantis]

posted on December 23rd, 2010, 1:05 pm

Last edited by Atlantis on December 23rd, 2010, 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Firstly, your model uses his textures. Just because you made the model doesn't make the texture yours too; the texture is just as important. That means it is not just yours; it's his too. So yes, you do need to credit him.

Secondly, design creators do need crediting. Always show your referencing. It's not a rule, it's just good form. So yes, you should credit him.

Thirdly, I see a lot of talk about crediting, but don't recall seeing one mention of asking permission (I may be wrong though)... Has anyone even asked him? So instead of wasting time on this thread discussing it amongst ourselves, go ask him! Then you'll know for sure. I know you're scared he'll say no, and my bet is you'll go ahead anyway, but that's your choice, I'm only advising you what is RIGHT.

posted on December 23rd, 2010, 1:33 pm

I agree with you in the question of textures, they're DJ's original, only modified to fit to my model. But the model is still mine and I still think that I have the right to give permission to anyone I want to use it or kitbash it. And as long as one doesn't change the textures of the original Armada II release and he gives proper credits to DJ, I can't see why would he ask him as well.

I understand your point of view as well and as I said, I partially agree with you. And yes I would be a bit concerned abut what DJ would say. But he didn't complain because of the ports of my works to FO and if he didn't complain first time he may not have the right to complain to anything similar, or he would have to complain retrospectively because of the ports as well. But he didn't do anything. Do not misunderstand me, I don't want to insult him and I don't want to take any credit from him, but once he gave either implicitly or expressed permission for something, then he may don't have the right to withdraw his permission any more.

By the way, what would be the case, if I would decide that I'm reworking my model or whatever reason. Should I ask him for permission again?

EDIT: If you find anything which would seem impolite, sorry about it, I didn't mean. It's only because my limited knowledge of English... 

posted on December 23rd, 2010, 3:40 pm

Yeah, k_merse does credit DJ as the origional author.  the question was whether or not we need to ask DJ to re-release a mod based on his work(texture work aside), which I think is completely silly.  If kmerse made the model, he can give us permission to use it, and he already told us we need to credit DJ as the original author of the design.  The textures are another question, for which I have no argument atm.