Better Single Player AI

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posted on February 1st, 2011, 12:55 am
Last edited by Tryptic on February 1st, 2011, 1:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
*steals white glove and slaps myself with it*

Challenge accepted!  It may be a looong time coming, but I'll see about applying a better AI system.  Unless of course Optec agrees to let me be a dev for standard Flops  :whistling:

EDIT:
Tokra it sounds like you've found a set of AI numbers that you like.  Modifying them is easy, and you don't mind not being able to play MP with your game.  But the devs may not implement your changes because you're pretty much the only person on this forum that plays SP exclusively.  Just modify your own file every time a new patch comes out, and everybody will be happy.
posted on February 1st, 2011, 2:15 am
Optec wrote:thanks for the help offered, but we already know how the A2 Ai works :) We are happy with the current AI as a long-term-placeholder, but feel free to make a mod with one thats more to your taste. We are always for community input.


Oh I know and appreciate that. It's the community that's against input, as evidenced by all of the spam in this thread (and the one before it) as I attempt to simply optimize one small aspect of the game.

edit: And mind locking this one too Dom ? I'm going to try again I guess.
posted on February 1st, 2011, 2:19 am
And version three of an attempt to mod flops without the community spamming the thread with unrelated arguements!


For those that havent looked thru the file RTS_CGF.g in the root directory for any A2 install, there is a set of six lines, two per difficulty setting, that control what percentage of build cost is paid for any construction/research, and the other controls how fast things are built.
float HARD_AI_COST_HANDICAP = 0.1;
float HARD_AI_SPEED_HANDICAP = 0.1;

float MEDIUM_AI_COST_HANDICAP = 0.2;
float MEDIUM_AI_SPEED_HANDICAP = 0.2;


Those are the Hard/Merciless settings for Vanilla flops.




Basicly this project is intended to redo those numbers so the AI is less spammy and more fun.

This is NOT a build list improvement mod, the only changes this mod intends to make are the difficulty settings, and to make them more fun and less spammy.

Consequently, the easy AI will get slightly harder, the harder AIs will get slightly easier.


To that goal, I need people to test the configuration for me

Go to your flops folder, and open up RTS_CFG.h

Scroll down to the handicap lines, and change them to match the numbers below.


Code: Select all
float HARD_AI_COST_HANDICAP = 0.38;
float HARD_AI_SPEED_HANDICAP = 0.38;

float MEDIUM_AI_COST_HANDICAP = 0.45;
float MEDIUM_AI_SPEED_HANDICAP = 0.45;

float EASY_AI_COST_HANDICAP = 0.5;
float EASY_AI_SPEED_HANDICAP = 0.47;



Basicly, the AI is allowed to cheat way too much in vanilla flops.

This just reduces how much the AI cheats by, so its not an annoying spam experince.
posted on February 1st, 2011, 2:22 am
Tryptic wrote:
Tokra it sounds like you've found a set of AI numbers that you like.  Modifying them is easy, and you don't mind not being able to play MP with your game.  But the devs may not implement your changes because you're pretty much the only person on this forum that plays SP exclusively.  Just modify your own file every time a new patch comes out, and everybody will be happy.



Indeed, I could do that.

However, this is intended to get the few people that may  enjoy such a change to assist in testing the numbers to refine them. For two previous threads noone seems to get that.

Tryptic wrote:
Challenge accepted!  It may be a looong time coming, but I'll see about applying a better AI system.  Unless of course Optec agrees to let me be a dev for standard Flops  :whistling:


Feel free to PM me if you need someone to test it.
posted on February 1st, 2011, 2:24 am
Merged
Please don't spam just because you aren't satisfied with the answers you get in response to your thread.
posted on February 1st, 2011, 2:31 am
Dominus_Noctis wrote:Merged
Please don't spam just because you aren't satisfied with the answers you get in response to your thread.


If by answers you mean almost nothing but spam and debating unrelated issues, or just people complaining that they dont like what is mostly just a personal mod ........


So its ok to randomly spam threads we dislike ?
posted on February 1st, 2011, 2:42 am
There is bound to be a certain degree of unavoidable spam (as you have quite readily exhibited in a great deal of threads). However, as you are opening up what essentially amounts to a discussion by stating your opinions about the AI, then you can presume people will post their opinions, just as you are :) .

If on the other hand you wish a totally closed thread where only you and those who want to test the AI post, it would be wise to set up a PM chain with those who have expressed an interest, as I previously mentioned to you   :thumbsup: . It might also be wise to distribute the modded files in question, as I think that many people are not interested in testing what they have to create themselves :)
posted on April 3rd, 2011, 12:24 am
so in summary, what should we change to make the game a challenge but doesn't allow the computer to cheat and get like a bazillion borg units when I am destroying all their harvesters lol
posted on April 3rd, 2011, 10:06 am
mkman wrote:so in summary, what should we change to make the game a challenge but doesn't allow the computer to cheat and get like a bazillion borg units when I am destroying all their harvesters lol


despite tokra's protestations to the contrary there is no quick fix to make the ai better, otherwise the devs would have done it ages ago seeing as they have been developing fleetops for the best part of a decade. ai isnt their priority, so a change to the ai isnt very likely for a while.
posted on April 3rd, 2011, 10:36 am
yep. a better AI system in general is on todo :thumbsup:
posted on May 13th, 2011, 3:15 am
Just got done reading this entire thread. Interesting. Having done a bit of AIP and Buildlist work myself there are a few things which people here may not know of.  The Stock A2 AIPs are intended to cheat and blatantly so. The Stock game engine has coding within the AIPs which allows it to randomize and change which AIP it is currently using. This was done by the Stock A2 dev team as a way to give the player opposing the AI a sense of actually playing against someone. Trouble is, it was not done very well. The idea was good. The execution was hurried and flawed.

The values in each AIP can be adjusted to make it explore longer or defend more or whatever. They can be changed to adjust the amount of ships the AI devotes to scouting, perimeter defense and the like. The values can also be changed to make the AI stop going somewhere or building certain types of ships if "This" occurs. Changing a single input value affects all of the others to a greater or lesser extent. It is very easy to break a Stock AIP and make it do nothing. It is almost as easy to make a Stock AIP overwhelmingly overpowered. Freyr and I spent a great deal of time working on the Improved Single Player Campaign AIPs and Buildlists.  About forty five or so playtest games per mission on the first few. Fewer playtest missions were required as we got more comfortable with each value or variable. I spent even more time playtesting when working up AIPs in v2.0. I'm not even going to go into how many times I had to completely redo maps and techtrees and Race ODFs because I broke something and created a CTD event. IIRC, we had about four or five people who played what we sent them and then told us what they liked and did not. The people who helped out and contributed or provided input are pretty much the All Stars of A2 modders over on A2Files, AFC, and MSFC. It is difficult to believe someone could adjust one or two variables within the RTS_CFG file and get the AI to perform noticeably better. We spent months on this. I am not saying it is impossible, but I do think it unlikely. One of the things which has always been interesting to me about modding A2 is the perception a quick fix for a problem or perceived balance issue always exists and, "If I find it, then I am a genius!". 

But I must ask some questions here: 

- Why do something like this for FleetOps? The entire raison d'etre FleetOps is based upon is a much better online multiplayer experience utilizing new ships, concepts, and game play styles.

- Why present this idea in the forums as some sort of mod and ask people to playtest it for you after adjusting their game the way you've indicated? To me a mod is something I do for myself first and then work on until I get everything working correctly. Only after I do this do I think about sharing what I've done with others. It is uploaded as a zip or rar file to a host site with screenies, backups(in case it fails) and complete installation instructions.

- Why be unhappy in public when someone else shoots down your idea? Are you modding the game for yourself or are you seeking the approval and admiration of the Community? No matter how good your idea/mod is someone somewhere will always dislike it. Even if they have to make a reason up for doing so. If you spend your modding time trying to meet with everyone else's approval instead of doing what makes you happy, you're modding the game for the wrong reasons.
posted on May 13th, 2011, 6:04 am
On the point of doing SPAI for FO when the mod has a multiplayer focus, there are two key reasons.

First, even though everyone would play multiplayer in an ideal world, many people are unable or unwilling to do so. Some are hindered by poor by system specs, or are stuck with a low-quality connection. I think it's commendable to give these folks a mod that they can enjoy within their limitations.

Second, even the players who spend most of their time online still play against the AI to practice micro and to test new initial build orders, because it's much simpler just to fire up instant action. If I'm going to do it anyway, I'd at least like it to be a good match.
posted on May 13th, 2011, 8:59 am
You are probably right. But while a better AI for FO may be desirable for the reasons you've mentioned, such a thing will certainly be a much more involved undertaking than what has been presented here as "the solution". :lol: Besides, if I am using the AI to practice against, I think I'd rather it cheated and had access to the things it has now. If I can win against something which spams ships and is allowed to ignore techtrees, winning against someone who is working under the same limitations I am shouldn't be that hard. For this the current AI works fine.

A new AI for FO will be a massive undertaking, due to the complexity and many new features FO has versus A2. And if I was going to do such a thing, I'd probably start with the Build lists. I haven't played a lot of FO online yet, but I have played a lot of A2 online over the years and it is one of the standard favorites of my LAN group. The best way to improve game play will always be playing another person. They spot the flaws in one's brilliant new scheme far faster than the AI ever will.
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