Better Single Player AI

posted on January 29th, 2011, 5:29 am

And it uses a different build list if you dont understand it there is quite a few articles explaining the AI in A2.

posted on January 29th, 2011, 8:19 am

There are values in the AIPs that controle overal hiw n AI acts Freyr has learned alot and programed a merciless AI that does not need to cheat. He is currently on his 4th gen skirmish AI and I hope to see somthing in the next few months.

Check  Starbase 34 Tutorials for some info and the BBOM Or PM Freyr At FF I'm shure He would share info

posted on January 29th, 2011, 8:21 am

Jeez,

Still going on about this??? I thought this thread got locked by Dominus. Changing these settings really don't do much. Why don't you do like everyone else has said and change the whole AI, or the build order (although I think the build order is fine, after paying attention to what the staff has said, and looking at it myself.)

and whats up with the Japanese girl with the cat ears?

posted on January 29th, 2011, 5:50 pm

There are values in the AIPs that controle overal hiw n AI acts Freyr has learned alot and programed a merciless AI that does not need to cheat. He is currently on his 4th gen skirmish AI and I hope to see somthing in the next few months.

Check  Starbase 34 Tutorials for some info and the BBOM Or PM Freyr At FF I'm shure He would share info

Without tactics the AI will not be able to perform even remotely like what is desired. All that Freyr changed were the build lists, and the variables that control fighting strength, where to attack etc - in order to make the FO AI able to compete with a human player, you'd not only need to have the build lists dependent on what the other player builds at the start of a game (aka, make it do what we humans do), but find a way to allow it to attack intelligently, choose the weakest spots, retreat etc.

There's simply no way to do that, and what you end up with (as in Freyr's AI) is an AI that is ok in singleplayer, but simply offers no competition to any decent player who has roughly optimized their build orders and tactics. On top of that, AI in both Armadas is not going to be fully compatible with FO (as Optec mentioned) due to the myriad of changes to the structures of the factions and the weapons they can use. In FO all the variables were changed to make the AI more optimized, but there are still no tactics involved.

Nah, this thread is a new one Kainalu; we'll see what comes of it...

posted on January 29th, 2011, 9:28 pm

we'll see what comes of it...

A lot of people spaming it and beng rude, mods doing nothing, bout par for the course.

Im going to say shut up and play medium because i can beat mercy so its doable

Need I say more ?

[Dircome]

posted on January 29th, 2011, 10:52 pm

Last edited by Dircome on January 29th, 2011, 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Of course, almost noone will read this, and people will continue to chant 'shut up and play MP'

Nice of you to forget what im replying too. Whos spamming anyway and really your going to complain about spam? And o btw i am perfectly calm.

posted on January 30th, 2011, 6:02 am

Dim With all due respect to your Knowledge of FO you don't know what you are talking about. You really need to go talk to him and get the full 411 before you go running around declaring what he has and has not be able to accomplish.

While Freyr's buildlists won't direct port to FO They do provide a means by which you can program a FO AI. The behavior perameters should port over however as the Devs have not riped the old AI out yet. That wont happen until they redo it. I know it is a short term solution but it is better then stabing in the dark for answers.

posted on January 30th, 2011, 1:37 pm

And further more what he does not seem to grasp is that the build lists are irrelevant to the issue at hand, as this affects the speed with with which vessels are constructed (both the actual speed modifier for the AIs construction, and the ammount of resources the AI pays which in many ways is even more important)

posted on January 30th, 2011, 1:43 pm

Costs are irrelevent to an AI tactics. You could make them cost nothing or 5x as much as your ships; it won't make the AI any smarter.

posted on January 30th, 2011, 2:08 pm

AI "intelligence" is irrelevant.  The resource cost for the AI is way too low to make destroying the mining of any use.  They can build 6 construction ships and 2 shipyards before they have to build any mining.

[Tok`ra]

posted on January 30th, 2011, 2:28 pm

Last edited by Tok`ra on January 30th, 2011, 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AI "intelligence" is irrelevant.  The resource cost for the AI is way too low to make destroying the mining of any use.  They can build 6 construction ships and 2 shipyards before they have to build any mining.

Which is what I've been basicly saying.

All Im doing is slowing down the implementation of the build list by making things actually have SOME cost for the AI.

Here's what the AI pays in vanilla flops.

dom_destroyer.odf

base price in the .odf
210dil
67tri
28sup

Merciless
21dil
6.7tri
2.8

Hard
42
13.4
5.6

Easy
157.5
50.25
21

You could make them cost nothing or 5x as much as your ships; it won't make the AI any smarter.

If you mirrored exactly the commands of a merciless AI that was the same race/avatar as you, the AI would out build you ten to one. It does not need to be smarter if it has overwhelming numbers.

It's irrelvent how smart/dumb the AI is, if the AI pays virtually nothing for a ship it progresses thru the build list at a greatly accelerated rate.

All this does is slow the AI down in progressing thru that list by making it cost more resources/time to build something.

Costs are irrelevent to an AI tactics.

They just means 210dil gets you one bug, and a merciless AI ten bugs.

posted on January 30th, 2011, 2:40 pm

i think the idea of an ai that can compete without spamming is attractive, but simply modifying costs wont get that. it will give an ai that cant compete and doesnt spam. ai intelligence matters, because if you take away its ridiculous cost reductions you run a high risk of neutering the ai. it will still waste ships by sending them single file into your fleet/turrets giving you ranks it will still build turrets in stupid numbers/places, it will still cloak/decloa randomly, it will still lose ships it could have escaped with. make stuff cost too much and it will set up buildings wrong and run out of all money lol.

what you will end up with is an ai that is easier to play against and will never win. if i wanted to play a game where i always won i would play Nim.

posted on January 30th, 2011, 2:41 pm

Intel is very relevent, as that's the exact reason they get reduced costs in the first place. Reducing the cost/time is a bad idea because it makes their dumb actions more noticable and them less of a challenge.

Ninja'd by Myles...

[Tok`ra]

posted on January 30th, 2011, 2:57 pm

Last edited by Tok`ra on January 30th, 2011, 3:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Reducing the cost/time is a bad idea

Which is why I am INCREASING the cost/time, and attempting to do so minimaly possible, and also why I've asked people to test my changes, so multiple skill levels are represented.

i think the idea of an ai that can compete without spamming is attractive,

So do I. Hence this thread.

but simply modifying costs wont get that. it will give an ai that cant compete and doesnt spam.

However, it CAN be adjusted so the spam is not as bad. Which is also the point of this thread.

ai intelligence matters, because if you take away its ridiculous cost reductions you run a high risk of neutering the ai.

Thats why I've posted this thread and asked for people to test the first round of changes. To test them against multiple skill levels, so the spam is reduced slightly without making it neutered. I've actualy made the easy AI slightly harder at the same time.

it will still waste ships by sending them single file into your fleet/turrets giving you ranks

Single file is, in large part, due to the AI settings. I've played mods were the AI tends to have groups of a big ship escorted by smaller ships.

it will still build turrets in stupid numbers/places

That's a mod config issue really, as you can tell the AI were to build them.

it will still cloak/decloa randomly

// Percent chance that AI fleets will cloak for long moves in Instant Action
// and Multiplayer AI (provided they can!)
float HARD_AI_CLOAK_PERCENT = 100;
float MEDIUM_AI_CLOAK_PERCENT = 100;
float EASY_AI_CLOAK_PERCENT = 100;


// At what range of a move command will AI cloak in Instant Action and MP?
float cfg_MIN_MOVE_DISTANCE_FOR_CLOAK = 2000.0;

make stuff cost too much and it will set up buildings wrong and run out of all money lol.

dom_destroyer.odf

base price in the .odf
210dil
67tri
28sup

Stock flops Merciless
21dil
6.7tri
2.8

My slightly modded merciless
79dil
25tri
10

what you will end up with is an ai that is easier to play against and will never win. if i wanted to play a game where i always won i would play Nim.

Which is the whole point of asking people to test, so I can get feedback on how to adjust the numbers.

it will still lose ships it could have escaped with.

Hmm, that part sounds like the config line (I THINK it is in rts_cgf, dunno, havent used it in ages) that tells the AI when to retreat is off a bit.

EDIT: I looked some stuff up

the race .odf contains the retreat info.

1st numbero is a shield value, 2nd is crew value. Both values must be met to cause a retreat, if I recall correctly.

Dominion
retreatstrength = 0.25
crewretreatratio = 0.1
Borg
retreatstrength = 0.4
crewretreatratio = 0.02
Federation
retreatstrength = 0.25
crewretreatratio = 0.1
Klingon
retreatstrength = 0.25
crewretreatratio = 0.1
Romulan
retreatstrength = 0.25
crewretreatratio = 0.1

So yeah, basicly by the time the AI reaches the configured retreat crew strength, it is almost always too late.

Once again, it's not the AI but the configuration of said AI, that causes perceived issues

posted on January 30th, 2011, 3:00 pm

Which is why I am INCREASING the cost/time, and attempting to do so minimaly possible, and also why I've asked people to test my changes, so multiple skill levels are represented.

My bad, got them mixed around. Point still stands, though.