How long for a patch - The Poll

posted on June 7th, 2012, 6:08 am

Now a bit for the down to earth stuff: I'm very often available and willing on Teamspeak, instant messenger or Tunngle to chat about balancing and discuss potential issues people might have. Our balancing takes note of the greater community and we adjust accordingly when necessary. Throwing insults on the forums however has never been very conducive to starting a conversation on a good foot

Maybe you should start to act/play instead of sitting around watching...or at least participate in the Tournaments. There you can experience balance issues and more first hand. Instead you claim to know something about FO from the calculations you do and the few games you play (doesnt matter how long you are around in sum) and maybe what you pick up from the devs. However, that is merely eneough to judge about balance and its hardly enough to give strategic advice to people.
In Germany we call this "beer-round talks" because they discuss things they barely have first hand knowledge/experience with.

Also, yeah, YOU saying that HE doesn't understand...? It hasn't crossed your mind that perhaps it's YOU that doesn't understand? Look, if you can't be bothered to do something yourself, for fear of "wasting time"... even though in the process you would be learning to mod yourself, which could even lead to you actually making a productive contribution to the community one day (a mod of your own)... then stop whining like a spoiled child and enjoy the game how it is already.

Oh no, you got me...its me who is wrong. In any case, my time is pretty precious (in monetary terms) so please forgive me that I dont want to waste my time.

So le me get this traght..... 1. you thin that dom, who has been around forever ans delt with 6 generatios of players... doesnt understand somthing? and 2. you say you want to build a patch,, then do it..... not many people have the skill to mod and a lot that do are working on their own projets or not doing it at all..... so if you do do this it will probly be just you working on it mainly.

Dom doesnt understand for a simple reason and that can be expressed quite well with a simple analogy: people watching football for 30 years are better then the people playing on the field especiylly since they are only 22-28.
False or true?

Making a balance patch is more about adjusting numbers...rather than changing models and such. It is just to compensate a few things that make games boring. So it shouldnt go beyond my modding skills....

posted on June 7th, 2012, 6:27 am

Can we please have a dom vs drrrr match, or dom vs boggz just so we can show dom knows his stuff?

posted on June 7th, 2012, 6:48 am

Ithink that would be great...more repalys from Dom so we can see what he can do...and I'm also for 1v1+ games...just to make sure that he also understands the difficulties of team games.

posted on June 7th, 2012, 7:19 am

Ya know drrr, I know I just suggested that idea. But honestly do we really need to qualify what dom can do? What are you looking for? For dom to admit that there is a balancing problem? I really feel like this game is pretty balanced, it never will be perfect, but it will be dang close, and seems pretty good at the moment. Why is it that dom is questioned and the devs are not? Dom doesn't run the whole game balancing operation, the devs do alot of that so I guess im just a bit confuse why Dom seems to be the for (lack of a better word) "target"

You keep asking for a time frame of when the patch is out, so you have time to do your balancing patch? But do you really need to know that? How much time does it take to re balance it the way you want it? It seems like you have a good idea of what you want to change, so then my question is, how tough is it to implement this change? Are we talking about basic value changes? (as my understanding is changing values isn't too tough, correct me if i'm wrong) Or are we talking about bigger changes, that would be tough to change from version to version? Im just trying to better understand.

posted on June 7th, 2012, 2:09 pm

I see this thread and verses from the Frantics song Tae Qwon Leap / Boot to the Head start bouncing around my head. Especially the Ed Goobberman and Teacher dialogs.

Ed: Uh sir... sir... ooo! ooo! Sir!

Master: Who disturbs our meditation as a pebble disturbs a pond?

Ed: Me. Ed Gooberman.

Master: E... Ed Gooberman.

Ed: Yeah. No disrespect or nothing, but like how long is this going to take?

Master: Tae-Kwon-Leep is not a path to a door, but a road leading forever towards the horizon.

Ed: So like, what, an hour or so?

Master: No, no. We have not even begun upon the path. Ed Gooberman, you must learn patience.

Ed: Yeah, yeah, patience. How long will that take?

Master: Time has no meaning. To a true student, a year is as a day.

Ed: A year! I wanna beat people up right now! I got the pajamas. Ha... yo... wa... wooo!

I don't think we want to continue down Ed Goobberman's path right?

edit: spelling errors

posted on June 7th, 2012, 4:41 pm

I agree with ray320 what is the fuss about, you havent done it yet. and from the way you talk Drrrrrr you have seen balancing issues for awhile. and at that if he would even tell you when the next patch is coming which he clearly stated that he doesnt know would you do your balancing anyway.

Since the game isnt worked on all the time there is no estimated time for delivery. They could say in a month but if something comes up and they cant work on it. then everone will be eagerly waiting and wonder what happened. then they get to listen to you and everyone else on why isnt the patch out. Now if everyone would patiently wait theres no arguing, and no need for your battering dom or anyone else.

All the same if you wanna balance so bad, DO IT! If you dont wanna waste your presious time then dont complain in the first place.

posted on June 7th, 2012, 4:51 pm

You keep asking for a time frame of when the patch is out, so you have time to do your balancing patch? But do you really need to know that? How much time does it take to re balance it the way you want it? It seems like you have a good idea of what you want to change, so then my question is, how tough is it to implement this change? Are we talking about basic value changes? (as my understanding is changing values isn't too tough, correct me if i'm wrong) Or are we talking about bigger changes, that would be tough to change from version to version? Im just trying to better understand.

The changes will be about numbers, adjustments to ships, stations, techs...I don't know what has to be done there but I will propose something at the weekend and then we'll see if a discussion leads to something.
I don't want a process where changes are implemented without reflection by the community (since this is what we already have).
What I mean is, that the dicussion will likely take some time and the tweaking will also be back and forth with values costing time. So 2 or 3 months might be necessary...that timeframe could easily be the time that it takes to get the next patch making all the effort pointless...but as I said, I put something up during the weekend.

posted on June 7th, 2012, 5:13 pm

The great thing about constantly testing Fleet Operations' balance, is that in order to do so successfully, I have to find and pull strong players with diverse talents from the online multiplayer community and of course organize lots of games to test as much as possible . It should be no secret that we have organized a testing team: you're sure to see many of them visible in the developer channel on Teamspeak when we play our games.

As a result - fun, fun, fun - I get to play tons of 1v1s vs these players, as first hand experience is a necessity for balancing intricate issues. Usually we try to have one player watch, and two players playing in these 1v1s, that way experience is meted out equally, and so that everybody understands why things happen the way they do, and what caused a loss or a win in battles and in each game. It's not been exactly desired to promulgate these names around the forums, as it invites undue speculation, potential harassment, and possible jealousy as well: questions should still be directed to me. Nevertheless, our current testers are Clintsat, Boggz, Kamk, and Butterbread.

posted on June 7th, 2012, 5:27 pm

To respond to the OP, rather than anything brought up since -- how long? As long as it takes. This wouldn't be the longest there's been between major releases.

posted on June 7th, 2012, 5:31 pm

Ok, on this point i just want to make a guess

There were no news about dominion until now, and there are news announced that haven't been posted yet (gerneric mine modes) so at least 4 months, they are still developing, thats a best case estimation, adding 2 months of beta testing (like the last big patch 3.0) we maybe see the next version within 6 months maybe later

I hope that there will be a bugfix patch before the new version, at least for the decloak bug, and maybe some other things

posted on June 7th, 2012, 5:40 pm

Maybe you should start to act/play instead of sitting around watching...

He's playing WAY more often than you do. (I've played at least 3 games of 325/6 with him the past 2 weeks, besides our huge time difference)
Plus, he pretty much knows every freaking counter and / or unit behavior. Every god damn single statistical number. He was even kind enough to write such things down for us, or answer to questions we may have.

There are obviously minor balancing issues, or stuff you have to do otherwise you get killed. Which is btw. even the same in bigger RTS games like StarCraft, DoW, CoH, and so on. That doesn't mean at all that FOPS is unbalanced, it's just the nature of RTS games.

Dom doesnt understand for a simple reason and that can be expressed quite well with a simple analogy: people watching football for 30 years are better then the people playing on the field especiylly since they are only 22-28. False or true?

Your analogy is true, but incorrect regarding Dom.
He's more like a football player who played for ages, now trains younger ones, while balancing the football game itself. I think that qualifies him as somehow "wise".

You could ask Dom about stuff you refer as "unbalanced", or anyone who uses "cheese" or "cheap" strats you got problems with, or just talk to experienced players, but instead you prefer complaining about unbalancing behavior that's just not there.
Especially team games are very balanced, the unbalancing component is the communication and faulty strategy inside your team.



Last but not least: i have to agree with Dom here on several things. If you want to outbalance 325/6, go for it. If you want to contribute, go for it. But seriously, start your own topic, and make REAL suggestions, not just complains.
Randomly bitching people isn't even nice if you talk to customer service, neither is it against people who do all the work for free, regarding people in this community who try and do contribute a lot!


And now the irony:

Maybe you should start to act/play instead of sitting around watching...

So, start your own topic, make real suggestions, contribute - it's really this simple.

flopo: I hope that there will be a bugfix patch before the new version, at least for the decloak bug, and maybe some other things

As said before: some things are version specific. And personally this bug is very rare for me.



And now, right after the commercial break, can we please go back to topic! With (more or less) better discussion material like: do we ever get another 400 news posting, why the fuck is this forum grey on grey, and why is there no cake?

posted on June 7th, 2012, 8:47 pm

Nevertheless, our current testers are Clintsat, Boggz, Kamk, and Butterbread.

...
I don't respond to you kamk...you just say what Dom wants to hear...there are obvious balance issues as we could easily see in the tourneys we had.

As said before: some things are version specific. And personally this bug is very rare for me.

Mainly because you only play Feds...

It's not been exactly desired to promulgate these names around the forums, as it invites undue speculation, potential harassment, and possible jealousy as well

The sad thing is that you really believe that this is a good idea...I don't care who tests the game as long as it is transparent and we don't have issues that render certain factions or ships usless (as far as we could see in the tourney this happens in several areas). And btw. older patches are no excuse for anything...they are also no argument for the current inbalances.

posted on June 7th, 2012, 9:06 pm

...
I don't respond to you kamk...you just say what Dom wants to hear...there are obvious balance issues as we could easily see in the tourneys we had.

It's kinda funny that your replies always start with discrediting other people so your opinion seems somehow legit again. Plain polemic argueing.
Anyways, the next patch is quite different in behavior to the current one, as everyone can read in the news postings, and so is the balancing. The tourney was right after the last patch, and many strategies have evolved in the community since then, which you obviously don't know since you currently don't really play. Slight unbalance happens a lot even in RTS games produced by huge companies with a way less complex system.
Read my post above and don't just pick a few lines you wanna argue about without any specific purpose.



Because i agree with Dom on this point, doesn't mean i just say what he wants to hear. I often argue with him for an eternity about stuff he really doesn't want to hear - having a point, goal, suggestion is the important part, which is something i still can't see in your postings or non existent topics.

Mainly because you only play Feds...

Which is just wrong - see above, another polemic argument - it's becoming just sad man.



Again Drrr, i can't see any topic by you with any serious suggestion.
Please cut the discrediting, bitching, attention seeking, or whatever that is what you try to accomplish.
If you're serious, then start a topic, or start talking. But please use arguments not just random complaint while discrediting everyone else.


good luck.



P.S:

Drrrrrr wrote:Maybe you should start to act/play instead of sitting around watching...

The irony again...

posted on June 7th, 2012, 9:36 pm

I think the issue here really is just that were arguing about arguing. The problem is drrr, i've seen you and others talk about balancing issues a good deal, but only talk. Balancing issues have been stated, investigated, and if the devs feel there is a problem, they look at it and make changes, and I feel like they are constantly testing for issues and usually address them in a good fashion.

However some still hold the opinion (such as drrrr and others that have previously voiced concerns) that the game isn't balanced, and that's fine that you have the opinion. However your talk is just that, talk. Prove that there is an issue, and that there is a better way to balance the game. I have yet to see any real proof of specific balance issues, and ways to fix them. I know that takes time and effort, but if you really believe there are great issues, and it means enough to you, then go for it. I'm sure people would aid you in discussing and possibly designing a new way to balance the game. However if you don't have the time to take that on, all you can do is offer your time to help test different strategies, and suggest possible issues that need to be investigated. Really your options are to state issues and your ideas to fix them, and trust that the devs look them over and consider your ideas. Or state issues, prove that they are issues, and produce a better way to fix them. This current thread of discussion however is not taking either side of this discussion anywhere, merely driving wedges between some people, and nothing productive is being produced.

posted on June 7th, 2012, 10:12 pm

To end all the pointless debate it doesnt pay to do a balance anymore because they are doing a complete overhaul of the game so even if you got the patch out so much is being changed that within a week to a couple months of the balancing you would do, it will no longer be of use.