The Federation 1.1

posted on February 26th, 2009, 7:41 pm

@Dark Painkiller...and this has to do with balance how?

I mean, personally, I think that the Excelsior should be able to one-shot klingon BoP's and defeat Defiant-class ships use it's failed transwarp drive to launch lightening-fast raids on ....yadyyadyad

posted on February 27th, 2009, 1:35 am

the transwarp failed, and as for pankiller yeah i agree with you to, it has everything to do with balance, later game stregth the feds dont have, okay here my thin, the roms have the warbiird which has like 44 attack, and 44 defense, but the feds have the sovy which is like 44 defense and 36 attack, if a galaxy class can fend off a warbird, then a sovy shiuld be much higher, thats all i have ever been saying is that i belive the sovy is that type of powerful ship, or even the defiant, the feds are on missions of peace, but they stilll do make very powerful ships to fend off borg, and i think the sovy should represent this, and the phalanx is better, but with only 8, and not high enoug stats it cant help to much, even the3 addition of the miranda would help the feds,m and it looks awsome, but back to sovys, the roms can build i think 5 tavaras with 20 credits, and upgrade those, and the feds can either send in two descents, which wont last long at all, or 9 assorted ships, whoich tavars would definetly beat, even if its 3 tavaras the feds warp in would be wiped out, the roms have all these refits and such, and i belive that that is more fed like, sicence, upgrades, defense(cept akira and defiant, those more offense), sensors, exploration, covert ops, that seems more feds and i just have a problem with it cus the feds dotn seem that unique, warp in should maybye be upgraded a bit, or the tavara downgraded, cus tavarsas are so dang kick ass, i remeber playing a game (before 3.2), where i was attacking with 2 descents, like 4 phalanks, 3 sovys and an assortment of 9 ships including intrpid akira and, one or 2 saber and newton, vs about 3 tavars with some griffins suppoorting them, and a warbird or two, and i got nearly wiped out, my descents fell so fast it wasnt even far, i think tavars are way to strong, thats my opinion personally, and that woulld help even out all races by reevaluating the tavar, cus roms seem to dominate.

secondly which i also mentioned just before this, is the need to be more personalize, i havent had alot of expirience wiht all the races but the borg dominion and roms all seem to be vfery unique, borg have a completely different building and mining structure, roms have all this upgrading and cloaking ships and station cloaking and spies, and dominians can somtim cloak, have hyperspace artillery, kick ass defensive turrets and more, what do kligons have? cloaking and 3 ships yards, one which is expandable, okay some uniquness, and feds have warp in, okay warp in is cool, and so is phalanx kinda and the upgrade turret, but what makes the feds and dom so uniqe in fleet ops? i think they could be personallized a bit more, like the doms and borg and roms are, more upgrading, older ships that have been refit, emphazise on sheilds (but some kick ass attacking to, empahzise on science upgrades, ans such like that, kligons attack, sacrifice of life and such, not alot of science, ramming maybye? i just think that more can be done to make them uniqe, like for feds, put in the miranda two, cus look at its defense, but also put in old miranda,



heres an idea, maybye make the shipyard build times slower for fed, and make it more warp in based, of an assortment of ships, that way you do get that older ship feel and alot of diversity, and then you might be able to upgrade them a bit, but can still make new ships just not very fast you mainly get them from warp in, maybye you pay a standard rate, to warp in 3 ships and maybye speed up the dealay time to like 200 seconds, but they can only warp in to an area inside your base, or right next to the warp in point, and then you have your ohter warp in that can warp in anywhere, and has the experimental ships

posted on February 27th, 2009, 1:48 am

The federation are perfectly fine Balance wise at the moment, you talk a lot of rubbish about the romulans and the amazing tavara and warbird. Have you ever used a warbird?

Getting it to the fight in the first place is a nightmare because it costs tons, takes ages to build and is slow as hell and it's weapons despite the values are just terrible takes ages to take down shields.

Sovies aren't meant to destroy everything in sight, you back them up that's the thing with feds you can't one ship build them like some of the other races like Klingon.

Sure maybe the sovie could get a slight offensive boost but in all fairness it's fine the way it is.

Also as for the credit thing with the tavara's, Imagine getting 9 Steam runners and having them backed up by Akiras with the special ready to go, Go take on the tavara's then and see what happens

and if you really wanted one canaveral for the sensor blackout

[Dominus_Noctis]

posted on February 27th, 2009, 2:41 am

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on February 27th, 2009, 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I said failed: "use it's failed transwarp drive to launch lightening-fast raids on ....yadyyadyad"

OOps didn't realize I made all of that a quote... 

Anyway... have you ever actually played Romulans? If you had, you might realize that exactly the sort of things Acidpunk is stating are true. First off, tavaras "cost" 8 credits or 6 credits : just like the Feddies... then tavaras cost over 1000 d and a few hundred t... plus the upgrades which are 600d 50t 600t 50 d and 400 each... so now I think that you "barely managing to kill that fleet" with support ships (aka Descents) + assorted ships is perfectly reasonable. Romulan stuff is more expensive and thus more powerful. Vice versa with the feds. Sounds reasonable to me (likewise stick 3 defiants in your fleet or 3 remores... and the tavaras have lost weapons or shields... and thus half their fleets firepower). The real strength of the Feds is their ability to amass large amounts of ships so that even losing a few doesn't really affect overall firepower... while for a romie losing one norexan causes you to lose 1/5 of yours. As to your other ideas about Klingons and Dominion. We've already discussed Klingons before, and the Team has already stated their opinion. Dominion is getting a facelift.

I kinda like the warpin idea though... but perhaps only for specific classes (maybe akiras and defiants; given that they ARE for war... so SF would probably have to grant the outpost the use of them and ship them in because of specialized designs).

posted on February 27th, 2009, 3:12 am

Firstly,

The Akira was not built for war. It is the new federation Heavy Cruiser and their most modern canon one complimenting the Nebula class Heavy Cruiser and Galaxy class Explorers. It is a mainstay of the federation fleet.

I agree with the current warp in system except I can understand that the Defiant is a warship however the Defiant has been seen to become more common by mid season VOY so it is likely that it is a standardized vessel now.

which has like 44 attack, and 44 defense, but the feds have the sovy which is like 44 defense and 36 attack, if a galaxy class can fend off a warbird

if the USS Enterprise NCC 1701-D can fend off a Warbird...

Then it does not speak for the rest of the Galaxy class line as a whole.

where i was attacking with 2 descents, like 4 phalanks, 3 sovys and an assortment of 9 ships including intrpid akira and, one or 2 saber and newton, vs about 3 tavars with some griffins suppoorting them, and a warbird or two

2 Descent 80 ish? A 120 ish D
4 Phalanx 160 ish A? 140ish D?
3 Sovereign 108A, 136D
Intrepid 20 ish A 20 ish D
Akira 30 ish A 35 ish D
2 Saber 30 ish A 30 ish D
1 Newton 10 ish A 20 ish D

Total: 340 ish? A 500 ish D?

3 Tavaras 350 ish A, 350 ish D
Some (3) Griffins 60 ish A 60 ish D
2 D'deridex... 85 ish A 85 ish D

*btw afaik all AI ships have all upgrades by default.

Total: 495A, 495D

The Romulan fleet on stats alone outclasses you.

Btw I didn't check it all these were my guesses...but I am sure they would prove similar to the truth.

A being offensive value, D being defensive value.

The Sov-Class is to week....

The weapons....

16 phaser arrays
4 forward torpedo launchers
6 aft torpedo launchers, firing both photon and quantum torpedoes

I agree with you too, the Borg Cube is too weak.

The weapons

Countless Energy phasers,
Torpedo launchers
Holding Beams
120 000 Borg

Oh wait, that's on every single cube? Damn....

posted on February 27th, 2009, 3:31 am

actually the descent is about 36 attack 606 defense, the phalanx 46 attakc 46 defense, the sovy 42 dene 38 attack, and i had moire then one intrpid and akira, my point is i belive that should be able to take out 3 tavaras in my opinion,

secondly, a galaxy can fend off a warbird, and a sovy shpuld be able to do more, i know that the enterprise dosent speak for the whole class, but really...... the sovy should be able to easily kill a warbird,

and to acid punk, my main point and new idea, was a way of making the feds more unique if you read it(bottom paragraph of my last post) by including a bigger amount of older ships, that could be uprgraded some, such as ambasdador, excelsior, constellation, maybye constitution as well, galaxy, miranda, nebula, and having a slower build rate for newer ships such as, mirnada 2, excelsior 2, sovergin, intrepid, etc, showing the feds use of older ships, instead of destroying them, upgrading them, heck maybye even use a consitution for a mining freighter,

and arhaz, um you might be confusing the nebula with another ship, (steamrunner maybye) because the nebula was built as a science ship, and has been outfitted for war, hellping that cause are what originaly customizable scince pods on the top of it, for weapon pods, and engine pods, which is also a very good idea for nebule, making different varient of upghradedable/customizable pods, and i know theres a thread about that somewhere

posted on February 27th, 2009, 4:38 am

heck maybye even use a consitution for a mining freighter,

>:( >:( >:(
that would be a disgrace to that ship. someone else wanted to use the excelsior as one and i felt the same way, so what if its old. it would be a  shame to do that.

posted on February 27th, 2009, 7:23 am

dude, they did that, they used mirandas for "heavy" freighters, but some would be upgraded to, i dont see how its a disgrace using the ship for a purpose instead of getting rid of it when somthing new comes out, excelsiors are still pretty good ships, but constitution would be good for scouting or for a guarded mining ship

posted on February 27th, 2009, 5:05 pm

*Sigh*

No I am not. The Nebula is a heavy cruiser and it is multi purpose, it is not a warship and I did not label it as one. It is a multi-purpose explorer that was originally designed to give a cheaper ship than the Galaxy class that can still perform most of it's functions. And I was saying it could have a sensor pod (IE Phoenix variant) that would enable it to be a tachyon vessel but that was in another thread.

secondly, a galaxy can fend off a warbird, and a sovy shpuld be able to do more, i know that the enterprise dosent speak for the whole class, but really...... the sovy should be able to easily kill a warbird,

When was the last canon time you saw a Galaxy class (Not the Enterprise) fight off a D'deridex?

And older ships are great...add them to Warp-in. I don't understand you guys sometimes though, they are not building more Excelsior class ships never mind those other old ones.

posted on February 27th, 2009, 6:37 pm

actually d'deridex warbirds have superior firepower compared to a galaxy class(also compared to pretty much most ships at all), but the warbirds strenght is also its weaknes: the whole firepower is concentrated to the front. So in a duel a galaxy could quite easy kill a warbird by just not staying in front, but there is no real way to put this ingame. Ingame only the firepower and the defence counts, and a warbird got a shitload firepower and medium defence, a galaxy medium firepower and good defence (specally after dominion war, where the galaxy class was one of the best battleships).
Last thing i saw that could count as strenght mesure of a D'deridex Warbird was in in voyager, the episode with the prometheus where 1 Akira and 2 Defiant attacked 3 Warbirds and we all know they wouldnt do that if they wouldnt stand a chance.
But now Seriosly:
I dont care whats stronger ingame, both should be strong and both needs to be BALANCED thats the most important thing. Im a fan of the galaxy class but i think its pretty much ok as it is, i would just like to see some kind of serios special attack at it. Also some kind of realy damage dealing special attack at the Sovy. 

(small hint: Nebula class gets mostly considered as light cruiser, exept with weapons pod, then heavy cruiser)

posted on February 27th, 2009, 6:49 pm

Being a heavy cruiser has everything to do with crew count, displacement (or mass in this case) and firepower as tertiary. Afaik.

posted on February 27th, 2009, 8:59 pm

i remember i use to play bridge commander and take out warbirds with a Bird of pray. all i had to do is take out that rear torp launcher and disable the engines

posted on February 28th, 2009, 8:47 pm

im jsut saying i dont think the way the feds operate is that unique like i belive it should be...... although i got to say, the warp in is alot better now

posted on February 28th, 2009, 10:01 pm

I do like the idea of  using older ships as a warpin modifer  In stead of one Soverien or Galixcy you could get severalTOS vera ships  with  a upgradeable  weaponds systems like Ablative armor, or pulsed phasers , regenative sheilding or a Ion cannon addon weaponds pod. Also you would have to research/build  a "Legacy Tech shipyard".  The reason so the older ships  could be repaired at the same rate as the newer ships. If  you did not not choose "legacy Reasearch  option/yard. The "legacy'' ships would lose  Offensive and Defensive points as systems are damaged. 

[ARES IV]

posted on March 1st, 2009, 2:23 am

Last edited by ARES IV on March 1st, 2009, 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

. Romulan stuff is more expensive and thus more powerful. Vice versa with the feds. Sounds reasonable to me (likewise stick 3 defiants in your fleet or 3 remores... and the tavaras have lost weapons or shields... and thus half their fleets firepower). The real strength of the Feds is their ability to amass large amounts of ships so that even losing a few doesn't really affect overall firepower...

The problem is, that Federation is very expensive too, so you will find it difficult to outnumber your enemy with them in late game. And unlike the Romulans, the Fed get not much for their money. The Sovereign costs far to much, for what it can do for example. And save me with this warp in thing. If those weak ships make you victorius, you have been just been lucky. You know, all the ships I can warp in, are nothing compared to the sheer power of the Tavara(s) you get for that ammount?

The basic problem is, I can wreak havoc on any Federation fleet, which a far less expensive romulan fleet. Same, while not so strong with klingons.

So Federation late game ships need to be

a) considerable cheaper

or

b) considerable stronger (what I would prefer as it seems to be more the way of the Federation. They are more advanced in technology than the Klingons and the Romulans in many areas.

Better a Sovereign is even more expensive than now, but then actually deserves that name.

The Federation is not a Zerg like race. Thats rather something for the Dominon. The Federations does not act in the way " It is fine, if we loose 200 ships for a small tactical advantage."

If you want the Federation Zerg like, than do that. (Although I would hate it  )  But you will have to considerable rethink their cost then.


For a start, it would be a great idea, to bring some life to the "Federation ships last longer in battle" theory. Right now they die at least so fast as their klingon and romulan counterparts. That would be an advantage, that actually matches with the Federation. "We might not have the biggest guns, but we certainly have the best shields".

I can perfectly life with "Federation is not a race of gret firepower". I just want that in that case, they get some major defensive upgrades.