Steamrunner/Miranda shuffle

posted on April 17th, 2011, 7:04 pm

The thick horizontal column inside the dome is probably where everything is, it seems to go straight through the middle and connects at the other side.

It was staring me in the face and I didn't even see it.

[Tok`ra]

posted on April 17th, 2011, 11:10 pm

Last edited by Tok`ra on April 17th, 2011, 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

As people may have noticed i am a big fan of the Steamrunner, but building it from the basic federation yard with a possible artillery upgrade would pose serious balance issues.

Before the upgrade it would be close to an Akira clone. I think the warp-in is the right place for the Steamrunner especially since it is an older design (Nebula/Galaxy era)

Akira is same era really too tho.

And the arty wouldnt be a balance issue, klinks build arty from their field yard afterall. Plus you just make the arty upgrade require tech upgrades that would post SFC in the tech tree, and boom no issue at all.

Akira, make it more torpedo based. Give it 2-3 torp burst fire with slightly weakened torpedos, and balance the phaser down in power more to balance the additonal torpedos.. Then put the steamrunner in as a chasis two as a short range mid level cruiser.

centaur was never said to be a limited production run in canon, i dont even know where you got this idea from. so it's perfectly possible there were many of them, just not as many as the miranda. they are probably slightly stronger than mirandas, being built from parts in the excelsior lineage. the centaurs in starfleet might have been on border patrol (like the centaur, we didnt see a lot of border patrols) or defending earth instead of mirandas.

new orleans wasnt said to be a testing ship for new lawnchairs, again where do you get this rubbish from?  there was next to nothing said about that ship in canon. so the devs can do anything they like with it without worrying about contradicting canon.

dont compare the excel and miranda, the miranda is older, being constitution era, and even connie refits were being mothballed when the excelsiors were first being made. probably the mirandas were easier/more cost effective to refit than the connies, so the limited funds/yards for extensive refits went to the mirandas and the connies went to scrap/civilian use. the excels were similar, just in a later era, they turned out to be a great general use ship, liked by many admirals (how many did we see flying them) and was probably easy to refit, thats why we see them in service still. many were in the dominion war, not all were sploded. no more were being built, but after the war, none were getting killed, and the upgrades they received for the war kept them useful. the mirandas were probably at their limit of refitting years before the dominion war and many died as fodder in that war. they were in a manpower shortage as well (said in canon) so the mirandas were probably first to be mothballed.

Miranda is TMP era. It's of about the same age as the Exelcior, as that was when it was first seen and it's age was never established.

Miranda/Exelcior both used the old dual bank phasers (even if in DS9 ILM often failed to represent that with the firing projectile) and that alone showed that they were quite similar. Second, the Excelsior was able to  be refitted for quantum torpedos as the Lakota showed. That would imply that it woudl be doable to give other older ships such as the Miranda and Centaur quantums also. That alone would give those older ships a great punch in the support role they allready fill, as a few ships salvoing quantums into a damaged bigger ship would take it out.

Secondly, Centaur type - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki the Centaur was limited because it was built from salvage. To quote memory alpha.

The Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual describes this vessel as an Excelsior-class starship variant, describing it as being among the ships "constructed from salvaged components, components in work, and custom assemblies fabricated by the individual fleet yards."

Steamrunner
Steamrunner class - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki

Most we get on it is that it was a 'heavy frigate', so it could prehaps be a good replacement for the Sabre even (since the Sabre is all but worthless currently). Prehaps make it about the same phaser power as the Sabre, with the addition of a photon and better shield/hull, but build slower and cost more.

Now the New Orleans has VERY little know about it, even the class name comes from secondary material, and among that material includes that some of the class acting as testbeds for torpedo upgrades, including part of the quantum torpedo project.

the few left are only found in scrapyards or private/pirate ownership.

Pirate Mirandas ?

No. Just no.

what is the point of a giant transparent ball? just plain weird.

it's startrek online. They need a reason to do something stupid ?

posted on April 17th, 2011, 11:44 pm

Miranda is TMP era. It's of about the same age as the Exelcior, as that was when it was first seen and it's age was never established.

the miranda and excel are certainly not of the same age. how can you not see what is obvious, the miranda is built from the same parts as the connie refit, which puts it at early TMP era. it was armed with the same stuff as the connie refit (dual phaser banks which fire in quick red short beams) and red photons mounted in the same style launchers. the miranda is of the same lineage and time as the connie refit, and the connie refits were being mothballed by the time the first excelsior came out. kirk's ent a was scrapped in star trek VI. btw a miranda was first seen in ST II, and it was said to be in service then, not new. the excel was first seen in ST III and it was experimental then. obviously the miranda is older than the excel.

Second, the Excelsior was able to  be refitted for quantum torpedos as the Lakota showed. That would imply that it woudl be doable to give other older ships such as the Miranda and Centaur quantums also.

1 ship was seen to get quantums, that of a changeling crazy admiral, not loads, thats why the lakota model will be for vet, quantums would be interesting. this doesnt imply that the miranda should get quantums, even at vet. thats plain silly. the centaur i doubt is big enough to warrant such advanced tech. quantums havnt replaced photons, photons are still popular, quantums are expensive and the federation is rebuilding after a costly war, not to mention helping the klinks and cardies rebuild (and whatever other races they help too), they dont have money to give all their ships quantums.

Secondly, Centaur type - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki the Centaur was limited because it was built from salvage. To quote memory alpha.

tech manual? TECH MANUAL? you know where you can put your tech manual?
here:


the tech manual is not canon, its not even good. dont bother quoting from it, or i'll start quoting from shatner novels.

also that tech manual rubbish was quite clearly in the background section, which means its not canon, background is a poor euphemism for rubbish.

[Andre27]

posted on April 18th, 2011, 12:24 am

Last edited by Andre27 on April 18th, 2011, 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

Akira is same era really too tho.

Class Development

There's a 20 year gap between the Steamrunner and Akira. The Galaxy and Sovereign have a 15 year gap. That's pretty significant.

As for the balance, imagine 3 veteran arty Steamrunners in range of your starbase. They do direct hull damage.

No it is best to keep the Steamrunner with a possible arty upgrade in the warp in.

@Myles:

the tech manual is not canon, its not even good. dont bother quoting from it, or i'll start quoting from shatner novels.

The mod team uses Memory Alpha as reference. Memory Alpha refers to the DS9 tech manual for the Centaur. The inconsistencies in the DS9TM are often discussed, but since MA uses the data we have to assume it is canon.

posted on April 18th, 2011, 12:41 am

the miranda and excel are certainly not of the same age. how can you not see what is obvious, the miranda is built from the same parts as the connie refit, which puts it at early TMP era.

The STUDIO MODEL used the same parts yes, however the ship itself was entirely differnt. At most the Miranda used the same warp naccles (as mass producing that type was easier logistically) but the bulk of the hull had little in common, and early TMP era is when the exelcior was coming out whereas the connie refits were mostly several decades old or older at that point.

it was armed with the same stuff as the connie refit (dual phaser banks which fire in quick red short beams) and red photons mounted in the same style launchers.

Connie/Miranda/Exelcior all had dual phaser banks.  That was the common design of that era, the same as phaser arrays in the TNG/DS9 era. All three ships also fired the exact same photons, however the launch systems were differnt, the Miranda's torpedo pod fires foward and aft. The connie was never seen having aft torpedo ever execpt in Enterprise, and the Excelsiors launch systems were not really visable, however one could assume that they were a tad better.

the miranda is of the same lineage and time as the connie refit, and the connie refits were being mothballed by the time the first excelsior came out.

And this just doesnt make sense. The connie was mothballed yet the Miranda lasted 100+ years more ?

That would imply the Miranda was indeed much newer.

kirk's ent a was scrapped in star trek VI.

The Enterprise was one of the oldest Connies. Odds are that ALL of the older connies were being retired, newer connies lasting in service for some time longer.

btw a miranda was first seen in ST II, and it was said to be in service then, not new. the excel was first seen in ST III and it was experimental then. obviously the miranda is older than the excel.

And the age of the Miranda was never established. It could have been as simple as starfleet deciding to take pre-existing component specifications that could be easily mass produced, and used them to mass produce a new light cruiser design.

1 ship was seen to get quantums, that of a changeling crazy admiral, not loads, thats why the lakota model will be for vet,

Quantum torps were also fairly new at that period in time, and harder to produce. One would assume however as they are more powerful, they would eventualy be included in more and more vessels.

quantums would be interesting. this doesnt imply that the miranda should get quantums, even at vet. thats plain silly. the centaur i doubt is big enough to warrant such advanced tech. quantums havnt replaced photons, photons are still popular, quantums are expensive and the federation is rebuilding after a costly war, not to mention helping the klinks and cardies rebuild (and whatever other races they help too), they dont have money to give all their ships quantums.

And none of that is cannon.

tech manual? TECH MANUAL? you know where you can put your tech manual?

also that tech manual rubbish was quite clearly in the background section, which means its not canon, background is a poor euphemism for rubbish.

Actually some of the background stuff is good, as the idiots in charge didnt get to screw it up.

And when tahts the closest to offical we have to work with .....

[Tyler]

posted on April 18th, 2011, 12:49 am

Last edited by Tyler on April 18th, 2011, 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Class Development
There's a 20 year gap between the Steamrunner and Akira. The Galaxy and Sovereign have a 15 year gap. That's pretty significant.

No there isn't, as there is no canon information on them. DITL uses very heavy speculation and fan-created info to fill in the gaps... like ship design histories.

Class Development
The mod team uses Memory Alpha as reference. Memory Alpha refers to the DS9 tech manual for the Centaur. The inconsistencies in the DS9TM are often discussed, but since MA uses the data we have to assume it is canon.

Memory Alpha has tech manual info in the Background section, which the site describes as 'non-canon, but acceptable as a footnote'.

That would imply the Miranda was indeed much newer.

Or that it was better or could handle refits better. It's quite possible they're from the same era, but the refit of the Constitution didn't work as well as hoped and killed the Class first.

posted on April 18th, 2011, 12:57 am

No there isn't, as there is no canon information on them. DITL uses very heavy speculation and fan-created info to fill in the gaps... like ship design histories.

We can argue back and forth, but MA uses the DS9TM for the Akira, Steamrunner and Centaur. That makes it canon. MA is the canon online wiki. memory Beta is the fanon wiki.

I used the DITL because it has a good overview of the era with information derived from the same TM used by Memory Alpha.

posted on April 18th, 2011, 1:07 am

Memory Alpha uses canon for the main article, Tech manuals go in the background section. Which I already said is for acceted official information, not canon. MA also lists the manuals as non-canon. Wrong way around; being on MA doesn't make it canon, being canon or from offical background sources makes it acceptable there.

DITL's a good site and I like it too, but it's not that reliable canon-wise. Most information is speculation by the site, as the text color indicates. Most articles are largely marked in the DITL speculation color.

posted on April 18th, 2011, 1:11 am

As much as I'd like the Miranda to be in as warp in - we all just gotta let it go.

I really don't know how I feel about the steamrunner... Canon only shows a phaser onscreen which I'd be happy to see be included. Whether the ship is buildable or warp in I don't mind, same goes for the torpedo armament don't mind.

Regardless of the circumstances that created the Lakota, I really really would rather see the ent b / Lakota body style be a rare warpin with the Lakota refit (quantums) being it's veteran version.

posted on April 18th, 2011, 2:03 am

As much as I'd like the Miranda to be in as warp in - we all just gotta let it go.

Just make it warpin in a group and be easy to kill but do ok damage. Sorta like having a warpin slot be 2-3 sabres.

I really don't know how I feel about the steamrunner... Canon only shows a phaser onscreen which I'd be happy to see be included. Whether the ship is buildable or warp in I don't mind, same goes for the torpedo armament don't mind.

Well the romulans and klinks can both build clokable arty, so having the steamrunner be arrond more would be cool, especily as you could upgrade them.

Cannon only shows a phaser, but Im pretty sure even vanilla A2 gives it phaser/photon for in close work.

Regardless of the circumstances that created the Lakota, I really really would rather see the ent b / Lakota body style be a rare warpin with the Lakota refit (quantums) being it's veteran version.

Personaly I'd say have it be an entirely different warpin, with lower odds of coming.

posted on April 18th, 2011, 4:17 am

I didnt really want to read the entire thread but i personally would like to see the steamie as kind of a strong monsoon. Then something else could be the torp bucket. But ive said this many times so we will see what happens.

posted on April 18th, 2011, 4:50 am

I didnt really want to read the entire thread but i personally would like to see the steamie as kind of a strong monsoon. Then something else could be the torp bucket. But ive said this many times so we will see what happens.

Steamrunner as strong monsoon would be cool, and Akira should be torp bucket, what it was designed for anyway.

posted on April 18th, 2011, 5:02 am

Personaly I'd say have it be an entirely different warpin, with lower odds of coming.

Yeah that's what I was trying to say... Separate rare warping, just the quantums for the veterans.

posted on April 18th, 2011, 7:38 am

Yeah, give it slightly better stats since it IS a MkII version of the Excelsior class, and its rankups are all better.

posted on April 18th, 2011, 9:52 am

The mod team uses Memory Alpha as reference. Memory Alpha refers to the DS9 tech manual for the Centaur. The inconsistencies in the DS9TM are often discussed, but since MA uses the data we have to assume it is canon.

as tyler said, background isnt canon. canon stuff goes in the real ma article non canon stuff goes in the bin or in background. tech manual isnt canon, its full of rubbish speculation.

The STUDIO MODEL used the same parts yes, however the ship itself was entirely differnt. At most the Miranda used the same warp naccles (as mass producing that type was easier logistically) but the bulk of the hull had little in common, and early TMP era is when the exelcior was coming out whereas the connie refits were mostly several decades old or older at that point.

the studio model is what was filmed for the film, therefore that visual is canon. the ship itself isnt entirely different. if u cant see the similarities between miranda and connie refit then go watch wrath of khan again with your glasses on, the hull texture is the same, weapons the same, engines similar its all there to see. the miranda is roughly the same age as the connie refit, while the excelsior is newer, the miranda was in service (we saw at least 2 of them, reliant in II and saratoga in IV) by II while the excel was just built in III. dont even try pretend that a miranda can be the same age as an excel is 1 is in service and the other is experimental. we didnt even see the excel become production until VI when it was under sulu. in IV he said he was taking it, but it wasnt until VI that we saw it active.

Connie/Miranda/Exelcior all had dual phaser banks.  That was the common design of that era, the same as phaser arrays in the TNG/DS9 era. All three ships also fired the exact same photons, however the launch systems were differnt, the Miranda's torpedo pod fires foward and aft. The connie was never seen having aft torpedo ever execpt in Enterprise, and the Excelsiors launch systems were not really visable, however one could assume that they were a tad better.

the launchers of the connie and miranda looked very similar. they were next to each other as well. while the excelsior's looked nothing like them, they were clearly visible in VI, they were far apart and looked nothing like the mirandas.

And this just doesnt make sense. The connie was mothballed yet the Miranda lasted 100+ years more ?

That would imply the Miranda was indeed much newer.

as tyler said, that implies 1 of them was easy to refit, the connie had already undergone a refit to become connie refit, there probably wasnt much further to go. while the miranda refitted very easily. like the excelsior refitted very well even when ambassadors could be built. it was probably very cost effective to refit some old designs.

The Enterprise was one of the oldest Connies. Odds are that ALL of the older connies were being retired, newer connies lasting in service for some time longer.

actually the ent a (not ent, that was self destructed in III) wasnt necessarily an old connie, the only canon info on it was that it was constructed at the same yards as the original ent (not a surprise being of the same class). so that means it was either built just for kirk's crew cos he saved earth in IV (unlikely in such a short time) or they just renamed another connie. gene roddenberry said outside of canon that he supports the latter theory of renaming a ship, he said the yorktown. which may have been a later produced connie.

And the age of the Miranda was never established. It could have been as simple as starfleet deciding to take pre-existing component specifications that could be easily mass produced, and used them to mass produce a new light cruiser design.

the age of the miranda wasnt given as a year, but we know its older than the excelsior because (as you quoted from me) it appeared in service before the excelsior appeared as an experimental. thats conclusive evidence that the miranda is older, there is no two ways about it. it appeared earlier, therefore its older.

Quantum torps were also fairly new at that period in time, and harder to produce. One would assume however as they are more powerful, they would eventualy be included in more and more vessels.

you mean like the sovvie and defiant and descent and the mass produced (some would say spammed) e2? plenty of ships in fleetops have quantums, to reflect that they have become more accessible over the years since the dominion war. but they are still more expensive, and photons get the job done cheap.

And none of that is cannon.

you were arguing for miranda and centaur to get quantums in game here:

therefore we need to discuss fleetops.

Actually some of the background stuff is good, as the idiots in charge didnt get to screw it up.
And when tahts the closest to offical we have to work with .....

official is meaningless, that bin cat can have your official stuff too. official is not canon. dont bother quoting it to support your assertions, or as i said, i'll quote shatner novels, and then we'll be in trouble.