Nova refit at tier 3 Eraudi Yard

posted on November 2nd, 2011, 12:14 am

weak defence? its the same as an akira. its defence is medium.

But, thanks to it's passives and weapon range the Nova-refit (as well as the standard-Nova) is vulnerable to klingon and romulan early-game ships (Rhienns, B'rels in numbers can hurt, K'Vorts really hurt, so do Shrikes).
Thanks to speed-upgrades Dominion-Breen and klingon ships shouldn't have problems keeping a Nova in firing-range.. plus romulans and klingons can just decloak in front of them in an unlucky moment.

posted on November 2nd, 2011, 12:22 am

Pulses aren't very common lategame. Pulses are equipped mainly on ships that are usually slower, more easily killed, and have shorter-ranged weapons.
Speed upgrades are expensive.
Luck is luck, it is not always bad.
Nova is strong. Please actually use it in a few games before you make unreasonable complaints about it.

posted on November 2nd, 2011, 12:27 am

Pulses aren't very common lategame. Pulses are equipped mainly on ships that are usually slower, more easily killed, and have shorter-ranged weapons.
Speed upgrades are expensive.
Luck is luck, it is not always bad.
Nova is strong. Please actually use it in a few games before you make unreasonable complaints about it.

Complaints? Pulses uncommon on late-game-units?... Ask the Romulans about that... and what about these.... what are they called.... Deathiants?

I referenced some examples of weaknesses the Nova and Nova-refit actually do have right now.

posted on November 2nd, 2011, 1:16 am

He's not wrong in stating that pulses are less common late game.  Deviants and Phalanx are rare, whileonly the Tavara is pulse equipped Warbird.  T-15's are the only 'heavy' dominion ship...

  How's that uncommon?  Ships generally get larger as tech goes up so the firepower generally ends up as torpedoes/beams.

posted on November 2nd, 2011, 1:20 am

I see the poor Norexan was left out 

posted on November 2nd, 2011, 2:06 am

Either way, pulse carrying ships are relatively cheap and can easily be produced if a Nova Refit shows its face.

Because of the abundance i consider the defense of the nova and nova refit weak. There is a reason why the nova is feared when it reaches elite status: it is frail and hard to reach said status.

Considering the concerns of some about the super-ship status of the nova refit i can go along to a decrease in speed.

However, i strongly disagree with the opinion that it has medium/strong defenses. Its passive and vulnerability to pulse weapons puts it in the weak defense category.

posted on November 2nd, 2011, 4:45 am

I see the poor Norexan was left out 

Ufff ... tells you how Boggz' memory is fairing without a decent computer, eh? 

[Nebula_Class_Ftw]

posted on November 2nd, 2011, 6:44 am

Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on November 2nd, 2011, 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Either way, pulse carrying ships are relatively cheap and can easily be produced if a Nova Refit shows its face.

Because of the abundance i consider the defense of the nova and nova refit weak. There is a reason why the nova is feared when it reaches elite status: it is frail and hard to reach said status.

Considering the concerns of some about the super-ship status of the nova refit i can go along to a decrease in speed.

However, i strongly disagree with the opinion that it has medium/strong defenses. Its passive and vulnerability to pulse weapons puts it in the weak defense category.

Nova Refit takes 20% more damage from pulses. Has 28 defense. That's the same defense as the Remore, just with the pulse problem. Assuming your facing only pulse weaponry somehow (a fleet of Martok BoPs maybe), it would be like a defense of 22, which is about as much as an Intrepid. Now let's assume a more likely pulse percentage of around 30%, that gives an overall defense value of 26. This is assuming the 28 was for no pulse weaponry (hint: it most probably takes pulse weaponry into account already since it's not a direct measure) and that my math is correct. 26 is definitely in the medium category, even for Feds.
Now if we assume the 28 takes into account pulses, then when not facing any pulses it's more like a defense of 30, which is an E2. It is much faster than an E2 even with a speed decrease of 10.

The counters may be cheap, but you should mix your fleet. Having a Nova refit around can only hurt you if the enemy is very good at getting just the pulse ships to focus on it. Even a 120 speed Nova would outrun a silly Warbird trying to pick it off.

posted on November 2nd, 2011, 7:16 am

Defensive Value is calculated with just hull and shield hitpoints, no magic
Editing Tooltips - The Hitchhiker's Guide to Fleet Operations

[Andre27]

posted on November 2nd, 2011, 11:43 am

Last edited by Andre27 on November 2nd, 2011, 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

A Quick question: Are the Nova and Nova Refit small or medium chassis.

Nova is strong. Please actually use it in a few games before you make unreasonable complaints about it.

The nova is one of my favorites when facing the federation, borg and dominion but against the Klingons and Romulans they then to drop faster than moths flying into a flame.

The Nova is a good unit and so is the Nova Refit. Both excel in hit and run, but when they get intercepted they die quickly.

posted on November 2nd, 2011, 2:50 pm

passives do not make a ship have weak defence. how strong its defence is is independent of passives. the defensive value is indepdent of passives. do not mention passives when saying if a ship has weak or strong base def. a ship is always weak to its counters. even late game ships with >30 def value are weak to their counters. the nr refit has medium def at 28 equal to the akira. akira takes more damage from SSEC and takes 80% of torp damage, that doesnt make it weak, just that it has counters. passives are situational, i am talking about the general.

when considering balance its not only sufficient to consider a ship against its counters, you have to also consider it against a mixed fleet. nova refits against a mixed fleet would be seriously one sided in the favour of the nova refits.

However, i strongly disagree with the opinion that it has medium/strong defenses.

nobody said it has strong def, it is firmly medium. which is enough to see it run away from pretty much anything at 140 speed.

about decloaking on top of nova: 1 kill is all you will get, the rest can run away.

about speed upgrades, if you force your opponent to spend serious money on speed upgrades then thats a win for you, as its less they can spend on ships.

about the t15: def = 22 less than a non refit nova. t15 is a spammable ship, its base defence isnt very flattering. its defence is like the monsoon, situational, high only when countering with its defence passive.

about the norexan: you're kidding right, speed = 90, 1 decloak kill is your limit.

about the defiant: actually looking better, still will take pretty hard damage from torps, but can dish it back out, still 10 speed slower, so with excellent micro you could get 1, maybe 2 kills if lucky.

about pulses: even if the enemy can find a way to spam pulse ships, they might be able to deal with nova refits, now you switch to something else that is large, like sovvies, their pulses all do 40% less damage. and the short range pulses (bops/defiant) do practically no damage.

posted on November 3rd, 2011, 11:43 am

The nova is one of my favorites when facing the federation, borg and dominion but against the Klingons and Romulans they then to drop faster than moths flying into a flame.

Good. You can't just use the same one tactic against all enemies. You have to learn to use different strategies to compensate for enemy strengths.

posted on November 3rd, 2011, 2:57 pm

Good. You can't just use the same one tactic against all enemies. You have to learn to use different strategies to compensate for enemy strengths.

And i do. Still everyone will have favorite tactics.

Hit and run with intrepid/nova, kiting with sabers with Canaveral and kill squad waiting in ambush and so on.

It does show however that the combined defensive value (defense and passives) of the nova is weak against any of the cloaking races.

[Atlantis]

posted on November 3rd, 2011, 5:47 pm

Last edited by Atlantis on November 3rd, 2011, 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

"Favourites" are a personal preference; you can't try to enforce your favourite tactics on the rest of us by making the Nova a good ship against everyone.

My point being, that if the Nova isn't so good against cloaking races, don't use it against them. You can't stick to one "favourite" strategy, and change the game to make your favourite one beat everything else.

Ships need weaknesses. Simple as.

posted on November 3rd, 2011, 7:51 pm

"Favourites" are a personal preference; you can't try to enforce your favourite tactics on the rest of us by making the Nova a good ship against everyone.

My point being, that if the Nova isn't so good against cloaking races, don't use it against them. You can't stick to one "favourite" strategy, and change the game to make your favourite one beat everything else.

Ships need weaknesses. Simple as.

I agree it needs weaknesses, i never suggested otherwise. The discussion is/was about the Nova being a hardy ship or having weak defenses. Because of the weakness against pulse weapons and a moderate defense otherwise i am of the opinion that the nova is a class with weak total defense.

The other discussion was [i]if[i] the Nova Refit were to be made buildable as a tier 3 Eraudi how to prevent it from being OP. Currently though the warp-in this is accomplished by its rarity.
If it were to become buildable other solutions would be needed such as the proposed reduction in speed to 130 (or 120).