Fog of War/Shroud

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 12:37 am

Yes. A certain amount of RTS gaming will always be about memorizing stuff that another hasn't - especially when it comes to terrain. Know your battlefield and scout scout scout. Even very good opponents who don't scout will succumb to extremely stupid things.

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 12:45 am

But the maps are static. We should only have to scout for things that change, as things that remain the same just get memorized by the more experienced players. Cut those of us who haven't played on whatever map twenty times some slack.
Furthermore, the knowledge of the map will be imbalanced between teams.
Are you saying that just because I haven't played on this map as many times as Boggz has, I should have to send my scout everywhere before sending it to his base? That will put me at a disadvantage, just because I happened to have played other maps. Is that fair? I don't think so.

As for "scout scout scout": Scouting is only good because it requires action from you in order to find out opponent's build order, and allows them to possibly make strategic choices that deny you scouting. Scouting for static things is not a good reason to require scouting.

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 2:08 am

I totally agree Nebula, indeed this is why I started the thread, I knew some-one would be able to articulate it better than me

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 2:19 am

I started a thread about this a while ago, and it got shot down because everyone valued being able to see where they had already scouted (even though that can change once the scout leaves...) more than helping out newer players.

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 2:36 am

This is one reason I suggest that besides nebulae and moons, the map is still like before. That way you can see blackness and asteroid fields for scouting limits.

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 2:56 am

This is one reason I suggest that besides nebulae and moons, the map is still like before. That way you can see blackness and asteroid fields for scouting limits.

That would work, assuming it's possible.

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 8:51 am

Once you take out the moons, nebulae, etc, what is left? Just the enemy units.

Fog already shows static things and hides units. So if you want to be able to see moons and nebulae from the start, set your game to "Shroud Off, Fog On".

So this suggestion would not add anything to the game, as it's already there.

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 9:24 am

We are talking about trying to introduce it as norm, to hel pout newer players and hopefully not turn them away from the game because they don't have all the maps memorised.

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 11:46 am

Yes, I understand that, but it's already there. To do it, all you need to do it set the game settings to "Shroud off, Fog on". Ta-da! It's already there.

What you've suggested actually REMOVES features (the Shroud, as it will cover nothing more than Fog does), and removed the players' choice as to whether they want to see moons etc.
I vote keep it as is. The choice is already there for those who want to see moons etc from the start (Shroud Off, Fog On).

All this talk of changing maps, making things triggers etc, it's unnecessary. One or two clicks before launching the match, and there it is. It already is the norm, if people choose, it's just down to the people hosting the match to decide at the time.

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 12:16 pm

Indeed Atlantis - and the default that people prefer is in fact shroud/fog on. Anybody can make a special request however, just as people do for gamespeed 2 of 5 etc

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 5:22 pm

Indeed Atlantis - and the default that people prefer is in fact shroud/fog on. Anybody can make a special request however, just as people do for gamespeed 2 of 5 etc

This is giving me a feeling of deja vu.  The problems with that are:

1) new players don't know to ask for that
2) new players usually don't host as much as they join games, so they don't set it that way either
3) how do you actually know most people prefer shroud/fog on?  I'd bet a lot of them are actually indifferent.

I don't think anyone sees a problem with the moons being visible initially regardless of shroud/fog.  That would help players know where to expand while still letting people see where they scouted.

Out of curiosity, why do people care so much about seeing where they've scouted?  I mean, once the scout leaves the enemy could build a huge base there and they wouldn't know, or they could decommission a base.

[Atlantis]

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 6:14 pm

Last edited by Atlantis on May 3rd, 2011, 6:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't think anyone sees a problem with the moons being visible initially regardless of shroud/fog.

I see a problem. In fact, I see three. I've already stated them, but I will outline them again for you.

1) It's already there. If people don't know to change the settings pre-match, they should read the manual, and experiment with the settings. It's an education issue, not a game issue.

2) All that shroud does is cover up moons and nebulae. So by showing them through it, shroud becomes pointless. The only things that shroud hides are those moons and nebulae you want to show through it!

3) By making moons and nebulae visible through shroud, you remove the players CHOICE on said issue. People currently are able to choose what they want. Your suggestion forces your own preference on the rest of us. How does that make the game better for us all?

I'd rather keep the choice, as in the current game.

[Nebula_Class_Ftw]

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 6:24 pm

Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on May 3rd, 2011, 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Shroud off, Fog on is close, but not what I'm talking about.

Shroud off, Fog on reveals the color of the background, as well as asteroid fields.
I'm talking about only revealing moons and nebulae. Shroud off makes it possible to warpin anywhere from start and makes you unable to see where you've scouted.

I want moons/nebulae visible (or just moons, if you really wanna scout for nebs) as an option. A separate option from shroud on or off.

Shroud is not made pointless, as it still covers asteroids and the background, so it still lets you know where you've scouted and stops you from warping in until you've scouted an area.


And just to make one thing clear, the area revealed for moons and nebs would not be warpable to until scouted, as otherwise there would be warpin problems.


One more thing: I explained all of this difference from shroud before, so I ask you to please read this post thoroughly.

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 6:39 pm

Having only the moons visible wouldn't change anything else.  This is not a setting that's already there.  Shroud/fog still has meaning because everything else (nebula, asteroids) are still hidden.

The only thing it would do is help new players find their expansions.  I'd prefer for them to be able to see where nebula/asteroids are, too, because experienced players will already know that, but at least moons would be nice.

posted on May 3rd, 2011, 6:42 pm

In retrospect, my post could have been more concise like yours Ruanek.