Fighting the Borg

posted on December 7th, 2009, 5:24 am

I've been thinking a lot about how the Borg have played in the past and in the present, and I came to realize one thing I'd like to see changed with how we face the Borg.  Every time you face a Borg player, it's always the same:  Build your cheapest bomber class unit and spam like there's not tomorrow.  The Klingons have the susa, dominion the bomber, romulans the rhienn torpedo refit and eventually the generix support vessel for the plasma torpedo, the feds basically use canaverals, and anything that fires phasers and photon torpedoes, which is nearly all their ships.

Here is my suggestion.  What if pulses were effective against the Borg?  It would mean that you could have a better mixed fleet against them, and wouldn't be as concerned about spaming bombers as much.  What I was thinking is that with pulses you could use the damage variance function, to make pulses do variable damage to Borg ships.  This would be similar to the leahval's metaphasic disruptor.  Sometimes the shots would do a lot of damage, sometimes they would very little.  But it would make pulses useful and interesting against Borg ships, and you wouldn't avoid those ships like the plague when fighting against borg.

Now, I understand that we use pulses and torpedo miss chance as a way to make things interesting between different sizes and classes of ship, but fighting the Borg right now is pretty boring, as there is only one tactic to use on them.  Maybe changing this would help.  The damage of torpedoes could also change against Borg vessels to balance this out so we don't have fleets and fleets of bombers and get some more variety.  I look forward to the changes in the next patch, whatever they are.  Hopefully they'll address this and make playing as and against Borg more fun.

posted on December 7th, 2009, 6:19 am

I like it.  A lot!

  This would close a couple of sad loopholes that currently plague games with Borg in them.  In a game where multiple players are involved, a player that creates ships in sufficient numbers to defeat a Borg rush will be left extremely vulnerable to another player that was not Borg.  A Klingon force of Susa is really the only thing Martok can do to stop that first Sphere, but they really don't do so well against other vessels.  Problem being that if you build a few B'rels or Kbeajq or even Kvorts along with them, you're not likely to be able to stop that first Sphere or Assim when it comes.

  In a FFA this spells death when you run into the player you didn't counter.  In a 2 v 2 it spells death if you don't always stay with your ally who hopefully countered whatever you did not.

  Like Mal and Dom and I have talked about, the best part about Fleetops is the ability to have flexible playstyles.  FO is not a game of hard counters like Warcraft or Starcraft.  Borg I'm afraid are reliant on hard counters.

  Now I say that if Scout Cubes, Probes, and other small vessels were more prevalent and a feasible strategy ... things might be different.  They have plenty of counters and also allow both themselves and opponents a more flexible gameplay style.

posted on December 7th, 2009, 1:39 pm

Mal im agree with you because of spamming bombers. But i think it would be big amount of work to programm. If the FO-team want to change so many files it also can change more files and make it more like in the shows.
In the shows the most weapons are useful around 3 times. Then changing frequency and it works 3 times too...or not (if used by another race earlier i think). So i think pulse weapons should not be effective(depending on the short fire bursts 3 times is fast done and because of the BIG Borg ships).
I think a more realistic way would be to give all weapons to borg ships a variable damage. but not less damage, more damage or most damage. It should do damage or even not(an exception torpedo weapons schould do a very small amount of damage everytime, because of the kinetic part of the detonating power - we often see in the shows that kinetic like bare hands, swords or phaser rifles used as push stick works everytime to drones...why not to ships).
The chance of damage should be increased with researching better phaser emiters(or similar things) who have a greater frequency range(can try more frequencys) and better random generator/Computers so the borg cannot calculate what frequency is next. If a good frequency is found it works 3 times per weapon type.
In allied games you can add a network(reserch) that says the friendly computers which frequencies are working currently and which are tried to increase the chance of doing damage. the network also helps if not allied with someone because the little weapons try frequencies and transmit the frequencies to the computers of the ships with bigger weapons so the last 2 shots are more effective. And the ships dont try frequzenies itself, they adjust each other to try everyone another frequency.
To balance this the small early game borg vessels(build ship, probe...) should have a much lower armory(like other races build ships...). Because of the chance that weapons will be not effective they are still stronger as other races ships.
If the beginning chance is ...to form an estimate 1 till 3 to 10(effective then work three times/not effective) and with all reserches(who should lategame already done) 7 till 9 to 10, i think the cube for example have to be like its actually is or a little stronger.

I know, not all is doable and every point is hard to programming and balancing but it would be more realistic(If you can say realistic to a science fiction).

Hope my english isn´t to bad and you can understand all i mean. Like you the ideas? Why/Why not?

posted on December 7th, 2009, 4:50 pm

Here is my suggestion.  What if pulses were effective against the Borg?  It would mean that you could have a better mixed fleet against them, and wouldn't be as concerned about spaming bombers as much.  What I was thinking is that with pulses you could use the damage variance function, to make pulses do variable damage to Borg ships.  This would be similar to the leahval's metaphasic disruptor.  Sometimes the shots would do a lot of damage, sometimes they would very little.  But it would make pulses useful and interesting against Borg ships, and you wouldn't avoid those ships like the plague when fighting against borg.

There is one problem with that idea. The Borg can adapt against energy weapons, pulses for the most part are pulses unless there is bullets in them. Remember in first contact? The Borg cannot adapt against physical matter (projectile) weaponry. That is why Picard's bullets were able to kill those drones. I believe torpedo weapons would be much more effective because it is a physical shell hitting the hull and then exploding. In turn that is why the borg cannot adapt against torpedoes. Though I am sure that making torpedoes a more effective anti-borg weapon would be more logical. But if a ship happened to have adaptive pulse cannons that adapt against borg defenses... then maybe there is a chance there for your idea.

posted on December 7th, 2009, 6:33 pm

There is one problem with that idea. The Borg can adapt against energy weapons, pulses for the most part are pulses unless there is bullets in them. Remember in first contact? The Borg cannot adapt against physical matter (projectile) weaponry. That is why Picard's bullets were able to kill those drones. I believe torpedo weapons would be much more effective because it is a physical shell hitting the hull and then exploding. In turn that is why the borg cannot adapt against torpedoes. Though I am sure that making torpedoes a more effective anti-borg weapon would be more logical. But if a ship happened to have adaptive pulse cannons that adapt against borg defenses... then maybe there is a chance there for your idea.

  Well that might have some logic in cannon, but right now we're talking about a gameplay that is a little too 1 dimensional.  Don't get me wrong, the change that was made for the Borg after 3.0.4 or whenever they became what they are is brilliant, but at the moment they need something to help them make use of their destroyers.

  So now Mal is suggesting something be done to help their gameplay.  We can worry about semantics regarding cannon weapons later

  I dig the pulse weapons, Mal, this gives most destroyers a better chance to stay useful against Borg later in the game and ALSO - The Defiant will finally live up to it's purpose!    It will be a perfect Borg counter with crit shot and pulse weapons.

  If you want to get picky on canon semantics, one cold always say that Pulse weapons are harder to adapt to given the fact that each pulse likely has a different variance and can change rapidly.  I think this would make an excellent change so that B'rels and Kvorts might still be a feasilble strat for a Klingon.  An assimilator that might seem totally F'd trying to it destroyers with torpedoes can still auto-assim them.

posted on December 7th, 2009, 6:43 pm

Then phasers and photon torpdeos should be useless, Gamer, unless there are bullets in them.

As far as achieving this, it's a really easy thing for them to do if they decide to.  In fact, they suggested it as one possible way they might go for all weapons to simulate adaption, but then an angry mob besieged them inside a windmill and tried to set fire to it with torches.

But maybe a rethink on that idea is in order now.

posted on December 7th, 2009, 6:48 pm

Photon Torpedoes are not energy weapons like phasers and pulses... they have an actual chassis and construction. It is a projectile. So Photon Torpedoes would not be useless if we were to resurect the canon logic of this into the game.

posted on December 7th, 2009, 6:52 pm

Torps are not Energy, but they release a fair amount of it when they detonate. The Borg could adapt to that as easily as a Phaser.

Picards 'Gun' is a debatable subject since they were Holograms, not actually physical bullets.

posted on December 7th, 2009, 7:01 pm

Photon Torpedoes are not energy weapons like phasers and pulses... they have an actual chassis and construction. It is a projectile. So Photon Torpedoes would not be useless if we were to resurect the canon logic of this into the game.

Where do you think all the power from a torpedo comes from?  That's like saying an atom bomb and a regular old bomb are the same because they have a chassis and construction.  The projectile aspect is simply its delivery system, not the reason its powerful.  That comes from stuffing it full of matter/anti-matter. 

posted on December 12th, 2009, 1:29 pm

it sounds to me as though some people want to turn the borg into pussies by making all weapons effective against them but lets get 1 thing straight the borg are and always have been the deadliest race seen in star trek they have never been beaten without some sort of help lets see now

1 the cube that wiped out the feds at 359 was only destroyed when data implanted a regeneration command with the help of picard/locutus which caused a self destruct

2 first contact the cube was destroyed bcoz of knowledge picard had from when he was assimilated

3 voyager only destroyed a tactical cube with the help of renegade borg

4 voyager endgame they used tech from the future which the borg assimilated from admiral janeway

posted on December 12th, 2009, 1:30 pm

the only way this could work would be to also give the borg an ability to assimilate and addapt to all weapons

posted on December 12th, 2009, 1:57 pm

the only way this could work would be to also give the borg an ability to assimilate and addapt to all weapons

If the Borg could adapt to all weapons they'd be way too powerful.  I'm more interested in making it fun to play against the Borg (e.g. not always have to spam bombers) than in making sure it sticks completely to canon.

posted on December 12th, 2009, 2:04 pm

If the Borg could adapt to all weapons they'd be way too powerful.  I'm more interested in making it fun to play against the Borg (e.g. not always have to spam bombers) than in making sure it sticks completely to canon.

Oh? So the Borg Adaptor is a demi-god ship because it is adapted to all weapons of a specific race? Adaption doesn't overpower them, because there was never any indication that the Borg ships are completely imune to weapons they have adapted to, only that the weapon does less damage than it used too.

Only Drones themselves are imune.

posted on December 12th, 2009, 2:08 pm

the borg are not meant to b fun to play against i think the devs have it spot on ships with long range torps are more effective against them u could use any sort of fleet u want against them u would just lose many more ships the best tactic when playing ai borg is let them come build a defense desrtoy what ever they send at you then attack them while theyre rebuilding quantum turrets work wonders against any ship

posted on December 12th, 2009, 2:11 pm

Oh? So the Borg Adaptor is a demi-god ship because it is adapted to all weapons of a specific race? Adaption doesn't overpower them, because there was never any indication that the Borg ships are completely imune to weapons they have adapted to, only that the weapon does less damage than it used too.

Only Drones themselves are imune.

What he implied was that all Borg ships could adapt to all weapons, which wouldn't just apply to the Adapter and a single race.  I think you'd agree that if a Cube could be as immune as an Adapter to the weapons of every race, it would be a bit overpowered.

the borg are not meant to b fun to play against i think the devs have it spot on ships with long range torps are more effective against them u could use any sort of fleet u want against them u would just lose many more ships the best tactic when playing ai borg is let them come build a defense desrtoy what ever they send at you then attack them while theyre rebuilding quantum turrets work wonders against any ship

Well, this is a game.  I'd prefer for it to be fun.  Sorry if that seems unreasonable.

Also, only the Federation gets those wonderful quantum turrets.