Fedrolling & Warpins

posted on May 5th, 2011, 9:37 am

what if they added a factor that gave a % on how many warpins show up ....eg: 75% 3 ships 15% 2 ships 10% 1 ship warps in... this way it does make some risk in the early warpin strategy because it a big risk to bet on 3 ships warping in ......and if you get unlucky and  only one ship warps in that could easily change the outcome of a battle. well this was just an idea that might take some of the edge off the early warpin. 

That would be another option. Prehaps also have a chance to have MORE ships show up too, with a double warpin at about 1% chacne, with most extra ship warpins being destroyers and the like in a swarm, or a regular warpin with 1-2 smaller ships.

[Elim]

posted on May 5th, 2011, 10:57 am

Last edited by Elim on May 5th, 2011, 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hey 23! Really nice try, but you are pretty much banging your head into a wall here, since the devs are pretty-much completely convinced that warpins are ok... so without any clear evidence you won't achive any progress on this topic. (actually thats ok even if I agree on this with you)

Honestly a vorcha rush or any romulan player are the only out numbered ones by first warp in. Both games against elim's dominion I was rediculously outnumbered despite warp ins , yet nobody comments on how "outnumbered" They are against dominion?

LOL dude... I gathered 180% resources  compared to you and you still maganed to win the first game...    I'ts not fair by my standards in any mean, if you would have play any other race in that game, or just not warpin rush you would have been crushed hardcore.... 

I think warp in is slightly better balanced then they were before, but the way it works still screws up game mechanics , just because of how resource management works in fleet ops(takes a lot of time for an expansion pays for itself and also the micromanagement intensive nature of the game favors heavily combat ship numbers over econimic advantage) . I will do some research on this topic, when I will have time for it. I have observed a lot of games recently with fairly good players playing feds, even a lot of fed vs. fed  (nothing is more restful then watching  feds killing each other with one of your eye while you are doing your bachelor stuff  ) and I have a feeling that there is still no point to not to warp in rush.

It's a little bit easier to outplay warpin massing feds imo with cloaking races, but the dominion and the borg can have hard times when, it comes on trading ships. In early game it's almost impossible to kill high defense warpins stuff, usually monsoons or intrepids get targeted first and even loosing them don't really hurt warpin rushing feds too much...

Btw, I don't really wanted to hurt anybodys feelings here  , don't want to start a stupid pointless arument, I will confirm my opinion with evidences soon (or it will turn out that I'm wrong maybe...) anybodies help appreciated on this topic.  Wanna do some testing with recording it. (I can do replays just need some "guinea pigs" for it )

actually all races can outnumber early warpins.

dominion are spammers, im sure u can find a small yard ship to spam from 2 yards

feds can double yard chassis 1 ships, even cheaper with monsoons, dirt cheap with a couple sabres mixed in for poops and giggles.

klinks can field yard spam some stuff up quick, ktingas can help out too if u really wanna bum rush them.

roms can double yard rhienns/shrikes/gens from the start with no tech buildings. so many possibilites. shrikes burn through monsoon spam fast, gens have torps which are good against warpins. if the enemy has plenty of chassis 1 stuff then the occasional rhienn is good for later when you get tech and can get phase plates, 80% less damage from short range

borg work differently so straight numbers comparisons are silly.

dude... sorry but what you wrote here is just simply not true...  I already did some maths/testing: at game speed 4 (just for the faster test) 4:30 in the game

- for example when you can get your first warpin + 3 destroyers (2inteps1 mons with risner, 2 mons,1 intrepid with mayson) = six ships

- a dominion player can get 8 bugs if he is double yarding it at mainbase, if he builds one at the expansion it will be 7 bugs

- even the most sraight up rude S-2 spam will give you only 5 ships at this time aginst the six and all of them has higher defensive value than any of your ships... -> you can't fight without being close to one of your yards

-a romulan player can have 3 lehvals(institute+yard first build) (4th half way built)

- double antares yarding feds will have also 4 ships (1 half way built 1 just started), the only thing that favours them is the safe expansion with a yard, but you can still kill some miners (or delay them) usually without loosing any of your warpins...

The problem that at this point feds can just attack because they can be sure that they can afford to engage you in open space (things are completely different when one of you is close to a yard), keep the pressure, expand with a turret. They can even afford to trade some ships with you at this point because what you can kill? one monsoon? 10 supply... 
After it, they will only need to sit back, wait til they get maxed on warpin cap, and A-move...
Yes you can produce destroyers (or small cruisers) ships from two yard, awesome.. they can produce from one continously, and til they hit the warpin cap the sfc will work like a yard and gives them battleships and heavy cruisers....  I don't really think it's completely logical or fair.

PS: I don't want to start a flame war or something bad, don't get me wrong, it's just my current opinion, it can change after some (a LOT) of test games, wait for the replays if you are interested on this topic. 

Sorry for the überlong post 

posted on May 5th, 2011, 12:16 pm

Hey folks,

I think Elim is right with everything he said and the warpin-support is much more balanced in the newest patch. Still it seems a bit too powerful... So what about this: Increase the built-time of SFC for 30 additional seconds! It might help the other races getting 1 or 2 ships more out of the yards...

(Off-Topic: also I think the Sensor-Neb is seen way too often! Maybe The Centaur can take a whole slot of one Sensor-Nebs... What do u think???)

Cya on tunngle...

posted on May 5th, 2011, 12:29 pm

Agreed, sensor neb shows up WAY too much.

The Nova warpin however NEVER shows up, at least I've never gotten thatwarpin.

That said.... I think I've found a solution to  the warpin problem.

Star Trek Armada II: Fleet Operations - Warpin re-do

Of course even then there would be a new problem, in that  if you have to PAY for your warpin ships.... well you're going to be hurting for cash if you try to do chasis 2 ships, and the sabre really sucks most of the time.

posted on May 5th, 2011, 1:35 pm

Bloody hell just post it in this topic instead of starting a new one. Last thing we need are more duplicate topics.

posted on May 5th, 2011, 3:46 pm

what if they added a factor that gave a % on how many warpins show up ....eg: 75% 3 ships 15% 2 ships 10% 1 ship warps in... this way it does make some risk in the early warpin strategy because it a big risk to bet on 3 ships warping in ......and if you get unlucky and  only one ship warps in that could easily change the outcome of a battle. well this was just an idea that might take some of the edge off the early warpin. 

That's really an impressive idea actually. It would be also more realistic why should there be always 3 vessels nearby? That would certainly bring more strategy and risks into the game as a fed player what makes it more challenging to play as Federation or against Federation in long terms. I like that idea. 


Elim also has some very good points here.

@Myles: Hm when I read your latest posts I begin to ask myself if you are just quoting the guide or if you actually have any mp game experience at all? Of course what you say can be right but reality usually looks different in Multiplayer. I believe I've never seen you before in a MP match yet in tunngle. So if you want to play test your different war scenarios with me be my guest. Would be awesome. 

posted on May 5th, 2011, 9:00 pm

dude... sorry but what you wrote here is just simply not true...  I already did some maths/testing: at game speed 4 (just for the faster test) 4:30 in the game

dont be sorry, i dont agree with what you're saying and dont worry about starting a flame war, i think your post had just enough restraint in it.

this is 1 of several current warpin threads, people have been discussing op warpins for aaaaaaages, it never goes away.

@Myles: Hm when I read your latest posts I begin to ask myself if you are just quoting the guide or if you actually have any mp game experience at all? Of course what you say can be right but reality usually looks different in Multiplayer. I believe I've never seen you before in a MP match yet in tunngle. So if you want to play test your different war scenarios with me be my guest. Would be awesome. 

i have some experience, i've seen warpin evolve and change for many many patches and i happen to think that its not "almost unstoppable" as you so pessimistically put it. i  disagree with your assessment.

id be more afraid of a fed player who double yards against me. warpins can be dealt with, and when you deal with them, you take away the enemy's supply.

i think your reaction is a bit quick, the current patch hasnt been out long, and i think that everyone needs to wait, take a chill pill, and think really long and hard about it.

[Nebula_Class_Ftw]

posted on May 5th, 2011, 9:06 pm

Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on May 5th, 2011, 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The only problem with warpins right now is that because you can't intercept them and there's so little time between SFC usage and actual arrival, multiple Fed players in a team game can warpin to the same spot and you can't intercept them and force the battle somewhere else like you can with other multiple player combined fleets. The warpin incoming marker will help with this a good deal tho, and so with maybe one more thing added, they will be balanced.

Besides that, warpins actually hurt a Fed somewhat in the long run due to supply loss. Fedrolling more than makes up for that tho, so not a problem.


Now as for Fedrolling: That is a problem inherent in having a defensive faction with cheap ships and turrets that  uses lots of torpedos and 360 degree firing arcs. I think a possible fix would be to increase platform costs a little bit so that they can't put up one at every moon so easily (making them easier to raid initially, thus making it easier to stop their fleets from growing so large.)

posted on May 5th, 2011, 9:12 pm

well the normal ships have to move like production fleets. so if u intercept the normal fleet on its own not only will you divert a battle, but you will catch their fleet with less than full force.

and if u force their main fleet away you can get warpins alone, and beat the supply out of them.

posted on May 5th, 2011, 9:16 pm

I've also seen many warp in threads over time, every patch brings 2or 3 new ones. Well, I'll say the same thing as always: I'd like to see weaker warp in ships and less galaxies(but stronger ones'). I'd have no problem with the Galaxy being a 3% ship, but therefore a serious battleship. And maybe excluded from the first warpin, like someone suggested in this thread.
I think cyrax' idea has been brought up every now and then and I like it. Most of the things about warp ins are explained via background - you can't choose what you get with an emergency signal and you will never pay for it. However, a low percentage of getting only one ship seems reasonable.

Personally I rather fight a Fed double yarding, because I can spam a counter against it. With warp ins you get a mixture of medium/short/long ranged small/medium/large cruiser/destroyer/battleships with HDSG/ ADAI against you. Try to find a fleet in short time against that.

posted on May 5th, 2011, 9:19 pm

well the normal ships have to move like production fleets. so if u intercept the normal fleet on its own not only will you divert a battle, but you will catch their fleet with less than full force.

and if u force their main fleet away you can get warpins alone, and beat the supply out of them.

If you're talking about the "main fleet" of multiple Feds in a team game: They warpin rushed. They had only warpins and were still able to take on my yard, base mining, and fleet together in one spot. The map was so large that it took a while for my allies to save me.
And of course you'll say something like "oh, then raid them since they can't defend!", but that's a problem because once you have SFC in a warpin rush, you can easily move on to building from a yard and are still able to send warpins places (such as your mining that is under attack.)

@Hope:
They did reduce Galaxy chances (tho enuff that you can actually get one or two in a game, previously you could get double galaxies and the majority of warpins had at least one) and make warpins weaker. Warpins are at their weakest point right now and are getting damn close to being balanced.

posted on May 6th, 2011, 10:55 am

Personally I rather fight a Fed double yarding, because I can spam a counter against it. With warp ins you get a mixture of medium/short/long ranged small/medium/large cruiser/destroyer/battleships with HDSG/ ADAI against you. Try to find a fleet in short time against that.

you cant always easily counter chassis 1 spam though, chassis 1 gives them 2 ships that complement each other well, and it will finish after you scout the enemy race and possibly their first ship, so you arent risking money on something that might get countered. you can adapt the strat.

as borg, you see them queue up 10 intreps (as a lot of fed players do the second their scout sees borg), so you put down a dodeca chassis, which is a big investment, they then cancel 9 intreps and switch to monsoons. your dodeca now does half damage when it auto targets the mons. so you leave it at one dodeca and put up some inter scubes to mash the mons, they then switch back to intreps. a fed player isnt committed to a ship until it starts building. a borg player is committed once the chassis goes down. and a borg dodeca is more of an investment than a mon/intrep. you cant really counter them unless they make mistakes, the best you can hope to do is force them to mix intreps and monsoons and have a mixed fleet yourself.

the klinks can spam vorchas with ablative to tank chassis 1 short range ships. but you wont get kills early on as chassis 1 can outrun early game numbers of vorchas. and once mons build up they can proximity torp vorcha as it cloaks. and by the time you get the numbers to get the kills, they could have easily switched up to excel 2s and spam them to hurt you.

feds arent unbeatable, its just harder to counter them or punish them for spamming.

If you're talking about the "main fleet" of multiple Feds in a team game: They warpin rushed. They had only warpins and were still able to take on my yard, base mining, and fleet together in one spot. The map was so large that it took a while for my allies to save me.
And of course you'll say something like "oh, then raid them since they can't defend!", but that's a problem because once you have SFC in a warpin rush, you can easily move on to building from a yard and are still able to send warpins places (such as your mining that is under attack.)

i was talking more 1v1 where they send 3 warpins and 2 chassis 1 ships maybe.

i concede that i once was part (several patches ago) of a triple warpin rush on a romulan player in a 4v4, it turned into 4v3 almost immediately.

we did all have 2 chassis 1 ships to support though.

large maps make the immediate nature of warpins all the more useful. that warpin announcement thingy will be seriously helpful when it appears.

posted on May 6th, 2011, 1:04 pm

Yesterday I made a game vs Lakarus, who used the early warp in strat as well. I Ktinga rushed him, kept him from getting an expansion. In the end I had 3times the ressources of him, BUT: he still had more ships(47 compared to 43). Of course, he built loads of freighters, since I raided his base mining all the time. But I did as well to get KTingas, so he built 21miners, I built 18 - not so much of a difference. The problem is that he could get a strong fleet without an expansion and even without complete base mining most of the time. When he finally came to me I could kill him due to Vor'chas and yard protection, but it was still a strong fleet, every other race would have starved of ressources right from the beginning.
I think the easiest and still useful change would be to increase the build time of the SFC. I wouldn't demand more. That way you can balance numbers in early game.

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posted on May 6th, 2011, 1:24 pm

thats a good point about fedrolling, dont give them time to breathe, or they will rebuild fast.

As i said, it is harder to punish and crush a fed player.

posted on May 6th, 2011, 1:44 pm

Agreed, sensor neb shows up WAY too much.

The Nova warpin however NEVER shows up, at least I've never gotten thatwarpin.

That said.... I think I've found a solution to  the warpin problem.

Star Trek Armada II: Fleet Operations - Warpin re-do

Of course even then there would be a new problem, in that  if you have to PAY for your warpin ships.... well you're going to be hurting for cash if you try to do chasis 2 ships, and the sabre really sucks most of the time.

The centaur iv only ever gotten once i ALWAYS get excells or sensor nebs which is boring and i have no idea what the nova is? this is a warpin iv never seen it.