Fedrolling & Warpins

posted on May 4th, 2011, 7:26 pm

Since the new version I think feds along with Borg are dominating in the hands of experienced players.. Even the best of the best have problems dealing with Feds. (See the Tournament for more details regarding that)

I think the balance is still fine and even better than before since the passiv issues are gone. That however also has a slight negativ aspect due to that because fed ships can actually kill now very fast.

And there aren't many things other factions can so (1v1) in early game stage. Due to the fact that Intrepids and monsoons are also auto targeted it's almost impossible to stop an early warp in if the fed player has some good micromanagement of his units.

My idea would be to change the priority regarding that. Meaning that all warp in ships are automatically being targeted on with the highest priority against all fed ships.

Pro:

- Warp ins will become less dangerous and the fedplayer really have to consider when it is a good time to send 1 in.

- It could bring a lot more balance into the game in early games. Because other factions wont have to manually target them anymore while the warp in ship simply moves out of range while the Intrepids give fire cover for a damaged warp in ship.


Contra:

- Warp ins wont be that strong anymore esspecially if you think on the supplies for a lost warpin ship. But it's still a huge bonus since the ships are basically free to get.


Another possible idea could be to let everything like it is right now but change the arrival of shiptypes on the field. You already modified it a bit. For example you could make it that a warp in already has at least on destroyer class included

At the moment that are Novas & Centaurs.

1 Cruiser - Nebulas etc.

1 Battleship like a Galaxy etc.

posted on May 4th, 2011, 8:20 pm

At the moment that are Novas & Centaurs.

And Excelsiors!

[Acheron143]

posted on May 4th, 2011, 8:25 pm

Last edited by Acheron143 on May 4th, 2011, 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

So you are advocating a possible change to

1, E1s, Centaurs                                                            orginially E1/Centaur/Senor Neb
2. Sensor nebs                                                              orignally. E1/Sensor Neb
3. Rhode Island, Torpedo Nebula, Galaxy, Ambassador. Rigel Neb    No Change

Thus guarrentying a destroyer in every warp in and less cruisers. It'd be welcome in some ways but against some opponents you want more or less of the e1s or sensor nebulas.

To be honest anyone should be picking advantageous targets against the federation. letting your fleet auto target in a battle against a intrepid.monsoon/warpin fleet is kinda silly. and actually if you've fought avalons or B5s you have known how poor autotarget is to rely on.

Ooopsy forgot rigel twice.

posted on May 4th, 2011, 8:59 pm

by the time feds are usually ready to warpin for the first time, how many ships are people generally able to get out to counter them?

be pretty easy to get a couple monsoon in time for first warpin... so your looking at five ships early on, maybe 6-7 min into it?

can most races counter with at least 3 by then? can any respond with 5? it might be expected that feds outnumber, but hopefully factions can at least meet them with their own fleet.

i cant speak for balance multiplayer related

if it is a problem to counter the first warpin, perhaps make the first warpin more fixed? in as far as no chance for galaxy or ambassador. what would most early game races be able to counter that with? so maybe you could be able to expect ships like nebs, and e1s or something. 

but i dont know. i know they already changed it so far so that you cant get two galaxies or anything straight away. so its more balanced that way.

but later in the game, does it become more fair? late game fed ships are costly and slow to produce i always thought.

be interesting to see what people think. im sorta impartial. AI feds are way easy.

[Anonymous]

posted on May 4th, 2011, 9:02 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on May 4th, 2011, 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well im not autotargeting but in early game when you manually target the warp ins and they simply move out of range you can't really keep chasing because as soon as you move your ships they automatically target the intrepids or monsoons again.

But in meanwhile you continue to get massive damage by the regular build ships of the Fed which makes it impossible to keep the chase going on. Because you're already outnumbered early on.. And that again results in wasted time by firing at the vessel and eventually the next warp will also arrive.. You're getting simply outproduced in early games. (1v1 games only)

I personally think this idea could be interesting. Mixing the warp ins so that you always get 1 destroyer, cruiser, battleship instead of 2 cruisers sometimes even 3 at the same time.

It would balance it out a bit.


Another possibility increase the delay for a new warp in. But I think that's great as it is right now. You see there are many possibilities what could be done to make it a bit more balanced for early stuff.

At the moment the only one which can really resist against federation is federation & Dominion perhaps.
At least in smaller maps. In larger maps that's a completely different story again.

Unless you manage it to prevent the enemy fed of an early expansion but in that case the specific player is usually a fed noob (my opinion).

Another possibility could be to make the starfleet command more expensive to prevent an early warp in use. That way the players will first have to get their expansions in order to produce enough cash for SFC. So the regular target for feds in that case would be to go for an early expansion instead of an early warp in.

posted on May 4th, 2011, 9:06 pm

Dominion will equal or outnumber the first fed warp in attack.
Klingon will be even if going kvort/kbq.
Romulan will be outnumbered.
Borg will have 2 Scubes and 2 probes against it usually.
Feds will be even.

Honestly a vorcha rush or any romulan player are the only out numbered ones by first warp in. Both games against elim's dominion I was rediculously outnumbered despite warp ins , yet nobody comments on how "outnumbered" They are against dominion?

posted on May 4th, 2011, 9:12 pm

actually all races can outnumber early warpins.

dominion are spammers, im sure u can find a small yard ship to spam from 2 yards

feds can double yard chassis 1 ships, even cheaper with monsoons, dirt cheap with a couple sabres mixed in for poops and giggles.

klinks can field yard spam some stuff up quick, ktingas can help out too if u really wanna bum rush them.

roms can double yard rhienns/shrikes/gens from the start with no tech buildings. so many possibilites. shrikes burn through monsoon spam fast, gens have torps which are good against warpins. if the enemy has plenty of chassis 1 stuff then the occasional rhienn is good for later when you get tech and can get phase plates, 80% less damage from short range

borg work differently so straight numbers comparisons are silly.

posted on May 4th, 2011, 9:33 pm

@Myles easier said than actually archived. Even if you survive the first warp in wave you're still hurting badly 'cause the first warp in + few regular build vessels usually go for your expansion killing your miners while his own economy is going crazy. So you still get out produced.

But anyway I wont further discuss this there are many different point of views and I fully understand it to simply say "Do this do that to prevent X." But trust me when I say this isn't my first day and many others in teamspeak & tunngle complained about it too. In the hands of a good player feds are almost unstoppable and that's a fact.

I think I've presented some good ideas here. What the devs will do with it. It's up to them.

posted on May 4th, 2011, 9:35 pm

what about ship quality?

if you have 1 monsoon, 1 intrepid, and get a good warpin. i tend to think early ships of other factions are generally a little outmatched.

dominion i could see getting lots of bugs out... but bugs arent that tough.

but yes, i would think you could make feds pay for it by targeting a weaker warpin. forcing them to give up supplies or retreat.

i would agreee that feds could probably do damage to miners though. for sure.

posted on May 4th, 2011, 9:45 pm

@Myles easier said than actually archived. Even if you survive the first warp in wave you're still hurting badly 'cause the first warp in + few regular build vessels usually go for your expansion killing your miners while his own economy is going crazy. So you still get out produced.

But anyway I wont further discuss this there are many different point of views and I fully understand it to simply say "Do this do that to prevent X." But trust me when I say this isn't my first day and many others in teamspeak & tunngle complained about it too. In the hands of a good player feds are almost unstoppable and that's a fact.

I think I've presented some good ideas here. What the devs will do with it. It's up to them.

archived? achieved maybe?

and if u arent willing to discuss it, then why post it?

your "facts" are merely your opinion, instead of being defeatist and just giving up against a fed player, try harder, you'll find they arent "almost unstoppable" and that you can stop them.

feds roll not because of warpins in particular, but because its so easy to keep fed ships alive, chassis 1 ships complement each other well and are hard to kill. mistakes as a fed player arent as ruthlessly punished, while smaller mistakes as a romulan can leave you weakened. its harder to crush a fed player and keep them down than it is to crush and keep down a rom.

posted on May 4th, 2011, 9:54 pm

what about ship quality?

if you have 1 monsoon, 1 intrepid, and get a good warpin. i tend to think early ships of other factions are generally a little outmatched.

dominion i could see getting lots of bugs out... but bugs arent that tough.

but yes, i would think you could make feds pay for it by targeting a weaker warpin. forcing them to give up supplies or retreat.

i would agreee that feds could probably do damage to miners though. for sure.

I just played my first match as Romulans just now (before i had played as Fed & Klingons) and i was amazed by how much more potent the Romulans had become.

It takes time/resources to get a starfleet command and by that time sufficient counters should be available.
With the exception of the centaur, most warp-in are slow and weak to Torpedo armed vessels.

I have my doubts about the whole, what is it called Teutenberg?, strategic warp-in but it is a vessel which can be easily countered by smaller vessel (all hail the inaccuracy).

I would like to see more centaurs, but the shift is IMO not necessary for balance.

The feds may look more powerful at this time, but that is merely because they are the most familiar race gameplay wise. The warp-in is changed, but compared to the changes in the Romulans, Klingon and Borg the changes in play-style are minor.

Non-fed Players need time to adjust to the new possibilities. Wait a month and if this is still an issue, revive this topic. At this time however i feel the reasoning behind the changes is premature.

posted on May 4th, 2011, 10:03 pm

teutoburg. spams torps from distance. very weak against small sized ships cos it misses extra (more than the usual 40%)

a teuto is 1 big target, and the solution to 1 big target is nearly always the same, bum rush it with several smaller ships. control it with specials and generally use the fact that micro is really easy against 1 target. plus the fact that 1 teuto will never get a kill against well microd ships, it just deals its damage too spread out.

the warpins recently received a probability change, its now impossible to get 2 "good" warpins, those in slot 1 (gal, ambas, torp neb, rhode island, rigel) and its certain you will get a sensor neb or excel. slot 2 is 65% e1, 35% sensor neb. slot 3 is 35% sensor neb, 50% e1, 15% to centaur.

posted on May 4th, 2011, 10:10 pm

Additionaly, for feds against the Teutoburg there's another valid option: Keeping three warpin slots free for calling a warpin to where the opponent's Teutoburg is; If not located in the enemy base.

posted on May 5th, 2011, 8:38 am

Personally I think the warpin should be changed. Remove free ships, have the ability to select groups of smaller ships INCLUDING regular build order vessels for warpin, in slightly larger groups, with the regular warpin vessels being more random, with descent/tootinhornberg being limited to a combined limit of two three if one goes double gold bar officer/vet.

From there, have warpins cost build price, dil/tri/supply. Have the in story reason be it's upgrading older ships  and/or sending out newer vessels fresh from a yard/refit.

This will remove the whole  free ship issue, as well as make the feds more dynamic.

It wouldnt be abusable really as there would be a immediate resource cost AND a cooldown period, and it would make the warpin less of an overpowerd issue.

That said, the very first warpin should still be free, as the feds can usually only get a handful of chasis 1 ships out in the same time that pretty much all other races CAN get ships enough out to match or exceed them, as the sabre is (in the early game) all but worthless unless the fed player ignores warpins for double yard sabres from the begining...... and while he may in that case do SOME damage at first, before he can tech up the opponent will almost always have teched up to ships that slaughter sabres.

[cyrax88]

posted on May 5th, 2011, 9:31 am

Last edited by cyrax88 on May 5th, 2011, 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

what if they added a factor that gave a % on how many warpins show up ....eg: 75% 3 ships 15% 2 ships 10% 1 ship warps in... this way it does make some risk in the early warpin strategy because it a big risk to bet on 3 ships warping in ......and if you get unlucky and  only one ship warps in that could easily change the outcome of a battle. well this was just an idea that might take some of the edge off the early warpin.