Enterprise J

posted on August 4th, 2010, 8:00 pm

I think the reason because starfleet got a maximum size is based on the docking parameters of the starbases. You have shipyards, supply docks and starbases. All of them can let dock a ship with a maximum size, and the smalles parameter limits the max. size. So... thats why.

The feds dont have dreadnoughts because they wont fit into a starbase. The klingons just let their ships dock outside the perimeter instead of letting them INTO the base. The whole idea of letting ships into it is a little bit outdated I think. Maybe starfleet needs a new kind of starbase.

posted on August 4th, 2010, 8:22 pm

the descent is big, the phalanx is big,

However i belive that starfleet went into a big string of wars and battles and refined there overall ship types,

what we see now are warships, not exploration ships, the defiant intrepid and promethius are good examples of this, i could see starfleet making the galaxy class, if it was heavily armed, or another flaghship/exploration/dreadnaught and such, however the rest of there ships at this point in time where they are at war should be more battle fitted

posted on August 4th, 2010, 8:26 pm

The Descent and Phalanx are not canon, plus are also in a similar league the the Galaxy and Sovereign size-wise. The Intrepid is also not a warship.

[RedEyedRaven]

posted on August 4th, 2010, 10:42 pm

Last edited by RedEyedRaven on August 4th, 2010, 10:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

What is a 'flagship task' exactly, and how do they relate to size?

Remember that very late TNG-episode when Picard and crew were assigned to move the citizens of a colony to a new planet because the former one was going to be handed over to the cardassians.

On the one hand, of course the flagship has many of the elite-senior officers serving in the fleet; but if a new flagship is built those officers probably get the offer to be assigned to it.

And size on the other hand is a factor for flagships, because the flagship has not only the function of being a state of the art in technology, but also has to give allies a feeling of safety and foes or possible foes a feeling of presence, something that really shows that Starfleet is present.
Who would take a Saber for a serious flagship? It would only show Starfleet had better things to do then seriously dealing with border-violations and such. And that's not what a flagship is supposed to show.

How will you evacuate a colony with a small vessel like the Nova?
How will you withstand a romulan warbird's surprise attack with the hull of a bird of prey while a Negh'Var at least could activate the shields even if seriously damaged?
How will you stay away from supply bases for long times with a ship that has not much room for long-term-supplies inside the cargo-bays?

You could go on with questions on that basis, and many of the answers will probably show that a flagship needs size as well as elite-officers and state-of-the-art-technology.



Edit: And what you guys really seem to forget: The Enterprise never was the first ship of any class, but it always was out of the biggest and so far most advanced and multitask-capable class available when built.


Yet another edit:

Small! The Century! It's longer than a Sovereign (702m vs. 685m). As for the Enterprise-E being old, it was only built in the 2370s, most ships have lifespans of at least 100 years so I doubt aging is an issue.

Well then. I now do see that the Century -even if just fanmade- has the potential of being the next flagship if the E doesn't exist anymore. BUT there appears to be no general rule about when a ship has to be considered old or aging. The first (true!) Enterprise was to be decommissioned after only 20 years, because upgrades were not really possible anymore because so much in technology did change between the TOS and the TMP eras. So the Enterprise D could have been around for 100 years while the E could see the time when Starfleet has very extreme jumps in technological advances again and so being decommissioned after only 50 years in comparison. So it depends on available technology and upgrade-possibilities as much as compatibilities. Sure, Starfleet has shown impressive refits like the Lakota, but I tend to consider that as an exception because the Excelsior class itself proved to be very upgrade-friendly.

posted on August 4th, 2010, 10:53 pm

The Enterprise-J, a Monarch (as in butterfly?)

Monarch as in ruler like Sovereign as in ruler.

posted on August 4th, 2010, 10:54 pm

In answer to comments before - a flagship would provide auras and help the fleet - it would not be the main battleship, nor even necessarily the strongest vessel defensively or offensively.

[Tyler]

posted on August 4th, 2010, 10:58 pm

Last edited by Tyler on August 4th, 2010, 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The Memory Alpha definition of 'Flagship' mentions nothing about size, while other places list it as an optional (the finest, largest, or most important). Enterprise wasn't sent to evacuate colonies because it was the flagship, it was sent because it was big. Exactly as big as every other non-flagship Galaxy.

Admiral Ross used an Intrepid, Martok used a B'rel. Last I checked, those are a little smaller than a few other classes. Admiral Nechayev even used an Excelsior.

posted on August 4th, 2010, 11:07 pm

Admiral Ross used an Intrepid, Martok used a B'rel (before swapping to the Negh'Var). Last I checked, those are a little smaller than a few other classes.

An admirals ship is not THE flagship of whole Starfleet itself x)

Also Memory Alpha only refers to absolutely canon information, and since there never was a real explanation in the shows or movies what it needs to be the flagship we only have the Enterprise itself to tell us about that. And I only see that every new Enterprise was out of the biggest class as well as the most advanced in general that is available. B was bigger than A, C bigger then B and D bigger then C. E is a little questionable as the Galaxy appears to have more mass than the Sovereign, which is apparently just longer.

And whatever is told about the length of the Negh'Var on MA, most sources I had made it a few meters longer than a Sovereign (688).

Also all of that doesn't eliminate what I told about multi-tasking and showing presence (even if you could send ANY big ship to any place to show WE ARE STARFLEET AND HERE RIGHT NOW, it would never have the same effect as sending the flagship itself which is known in any other major faction by name).

[Tyler]

posted on August 4th, 2010, 11:14 pm

Last edited by Tyler on August 4th, 2010, 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

An admirals ship is not THE flagship of whole Starfleet itself x)

A flagship is a flagship if it's called a flagship. Being called flagships (and matching the definition), they are flagships.

Flagship.

Also Memory Alpha only refers to absolutely canon information, and since there never was a real explanation in the shows or movies what it needs to be the flagship we only have the Enterprise itself to tell us about that. And I only see that every new Enterprise was out of the biggest class as well as the most advanced in general that is available. B was bigger than A, C bigger then B and D bigger then C. E is a little questionable as the Galaxy appears to have more mass than the Sovereign, which is apparently just longer.

We have had flagships from the smallest classes, showing not all of them are the biggest. The A was inferior in size and tech to the Excelsior, which already existing when it was launched. The Enterprise line are not the only flagships in Star Trek.

And whatever is told about the length of the Negh'Var on MA, most sources I had made it a few meters longer than a Sovereign (688).

I removed the Negh'Var because it was never Martok's flagship, he went back to the Rotarren very fast.

Also all of that doesn't eliminate what I told about multi-tasking and showing presence (even if you could send ANY big ship to any place to show WE ARE STARFLEET AND HERE RIGHT NOW, it would never have the same effect as sending the flagship itself which is known in any other major faction by name).

Enterprise and its captain are well known, as is its status as bigger and better than many other ships. What Starfleet calls a flagship, others call a Starship. What's more intimidating; the word flagship, or a large weapons array and a captain smarter than you?

posted on August 4th, 2010, 11:24 pm

We have had flagships from the smallest classes, showing not all of them are the biggest. The A was inferior in size and tech to the Excelsior, which already existing when it was launched.

Yes but the Excelsior was not a proven platform at that time, it was still marred with the stigma of being a failed experiment, however; Once Excelsior was a proven platform we got ourselves the Enterprise-B.

posted on August 4th, 2010, 11:27 pm

The ship was still around, and better than the Constitution.

I was going to challenge the 'failed experiment' thing, but that's off-topic...

posted on August 4th, 2010, 11:28 pm

The ship was still around, and better than the Constitution.

I was going to challenge the 'failed experiment' thing, but that's off-topic...

My point is that it was un-proven. Not that it did not exist.

posted on August 4th, 2010, 11:44 pm

I removed the Negh'Var because it was never Martok's flagship, he went back to the Rotarren very fast.

I'm not sure, but was the real Martok really commanding the Negh'Var after he got out of that Dominion prison he was in for so long while his changeling-counterpart attacked DS9 with the Negh'Var?

posted on August 4th, 2010, 11:54 pm

I'm sure it was the Founder one, he wasn't killed until the year after the attack.

posted on August 5th, 2010, 8:08 pm

Well then. I now do see that the Century -even if just fanmade- has the potential of being the next flagship if the E doesn't exist anymore. BUT there appears to be no general rule about when a ship has to be considered old or aging. The first (true!) Enterprise was to be decommissioned after only 20 years, because upgrades were not really possible anymore because so much in technology did change between the TOS and the TMP eras. So the Enterprise D could have been around for 100 years while the E could see the time when Starfleet has very extreme jumps in technological advances again and so being decommissioned after only 50 years in comparison. So it depends on available technology and upgrade-possibilities as much as compatibilities. Sure, Starfleet has shown impressive refits like the Lakota, but I tend to consider that as an exception because the Excelsior class itself proved to be very upgrade-friendly.

The Galaxy, and probably the Sovereign too, was designed with a massive amount of open space. It was designed to be modular and to accept refits, I have no doubt that the both the Galaxy and Sovereign classes would get major refits if necessary.