Constitution and Miranda

posted on January 8th, 2011, 8:32 pm

i dont believe starfleet should be good at capturing ships in war. its not their style.

the dominion klinks and borg are great at it though, since that fits them well. dominion have soldiers bred for fighting, klingons train hard to be warriors, especially in close quarters and the borg are well known to be good at assimilation.

the romulans would capture in a clandestine way, the tavara has those marines for that purpose, but its not common.

posted on January 8th, 2011, 8:42 pm

i dont believe starfleet should be good at capturing ships in war. its not their style.

the dominion klinks and borg are great at it though, since that fits them well. dominion have soldiers bred for fighting, klingons train hard to be warriors, especially in close quarters and the borg are well known to be good at assimilation.

the romulans would capture in a clandestine way, the tavara has those marines for that purpose, but its not common.

Everyone always has the opinion that humans would be or are one of the weakest species in the galaxy, i think they are totaly under estimated humans are aggresive and self destructive if ever we do meet other races from space i think humans will be the most physically imposing of them all.

More on topic, humans may not normally intentionlly board a ship with the intention of capturing it to use it in combat but they certainly could.

Klingons dont do this in any series either, they have been seen to board ships but not with the intention of capturing it, more to face their enemy and kill them like warriors, the dominion only ever did this with the defiant and that was to get information from the ship as i recall. so no race has really been known to do this other than the borg.

posted on January 8th, 2011, 8:53 pm

Capturing ships itself isn't 'not Starfleet-style', but risking their officers to take a ship that is unlikely to escape alive certainly is. Anything captured is likely to be very important to them, but oddly enough they always used redshirts regular security.

Klingons tried to capture the Enterprise in one of the movies (idiots didn't recognize a countdown...), so they have shown they will if they believe they can get prestiege from it.

Romulans have also shown themselves willing to capture ships for the same reason (at least in TOS).

posted on January 8th, 2011, 9:40 pm

Everyone always has the opinion that humans would be or are one of the weakest species in the galaxy, i think they are totaly under estimated humans are aggresive and self destructive

in star trek humans are one of the weakest. klingons are taller and heavier and are trained from a young age to fight. humans are trained to think. klingons are bad at science, humans are bad at hand to hand combat. borg are cybernetically enhanced end of. jemhadar are bred for fighting. we see the main characters hold their own occasionally because the main characters are op in all trek, and in most sci fi.

if ever we do meet other races from space i think humans will be the most physically imposing of them all.

lol what evidence do you have for that?

More on topic, humans may not normally intentionlly board a ship with the intention of capturing it to use it in combat but they certainly could.

any race can board and capture, thats what transporters are for and why every race has them. just some races are better at capturing than others. thats why klinks and dominion have troopships and feds and roms dont.

Klingons dont do this in any series either, they have been seen to board ships but not with the intention of capturing it, more to face their enemy and kill them like warriors

we saw them board ds9 and they appeared to do a good job against everyone but main characters and garak, especially since we already knew they couldnt win because the show would end.

klingons should have a troopship dedicated to combat, they are a warrior race. even if they just use the troops as a way to attack the ship for fun.

fed ships are explorers mostly.

Capturing ships itself isn't 'not Starfleet-style

it is 'not starfleet style' since starfleet combat is defence oriented, their ships are designed to defend the federation, while boarding enemy units is an offensive tactic. it doesnt fit with defending themselves.

of course starfleet are capable of boarding, its just they do it rarely and wouldnt have a mass production ship designed to carry boarding parties.

posted on January 8th, 2011, 9:57 pm

Capturing ships is neither offensive nor defensive, as they can be taken for multiple reasons not just for more guns (like info from the computers spies cannot get). It's no more offensive or wrong than blowing up fully-crewed ships, which happens for multiple reasons (offensive, defensive or otherwise).

Things that are not their style are those that cause moral or ethical concerns, taking over a ship isn't one of those things. They rarely have a reason and it wastes valuable crew lives, the latter of which concerns them.

Not that I'm saying they'd do it full-time, just that the reason they don't is different in my view.

posted on January 8th, 2011, 10:09 pm

Capturing ships is neither offensive nor defensive, as they can be taken for multiple reasons not just for more guns (like info from the computers spies cannot get).

it is offensive. if they come attack you and you wanna defend, you dont capture, you fire at them until they leave or are destroyed. im not saying starfleet has no use for capturing, just they have much less use, and are less capable.

Things that are not their style are those that cause moral or ethical concerns, taking over a ship isn't one of those things. They rarely have a reason and it wastes valuable crew lives, the latter of which concerns them.

thats also a reason why they dont capture often

when they do capture it will be mission specific and the boarding parties would probably be put onboard a ship before the mission. in fleetops we are dealing with good ol' fashioned war.

[Tyler]

posted on January 8th, 2011, 10:24 pm

Last edited by Tyler on January 8th, 2011, 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The action is offensive, the motivation isn't always. Firing at ships is offensive, the motivation is not. Different scenario, same motivation. Intel gathering (cloaking ship), learning about tech (Mixed-Tech) or even getting resources and increasing your own defense as reasons for boarding are all as valid as taking it purely to kill with.

Shoot to capture or shoot to kill, the motivation and goal is the same; keep them from killing us. It's also good old war that includes mixed-tech, so there would eventually be boarding somewhere.

Am I the only one getting a feeling of Déjà vu from this discussion?

posted on January 8th, 2011, 11:04 pm

boarding is offensive. with the exception of things like intel gathering which are mission specific

if you are under attack and are only interested in defending, you dont think lets go board them when their shields are down, you think lets shoot them until they go away. starfleet wont board unless it has a mission specific reason to board. ergo no need for troopships in mass production.

i think we are agreed on the fact that feds wont build troopships.

posted on January 8th, 2011, 11:15 pm

Well I wasn't arguing for troopships, just that boarding isn't considered 'wrong' or anything immoral. I agreed that it's something they'd rarely do.

Though the action being offensive by nature still isn't of primary importance, since it's what they intend to get from it that decides the best option. Shooting at them isn't going to get much info from a computer, after all.

...I wonder if it's possible to get a troopship to only be able to board captured ships of your own race?

posted on January 8th, 2011, 11:17 pm

boarding isnt wrong, its just not a common fed strategy.

posted on January 8th, 2011, 11:30 pm

in star trek humans are one of the weakest. klingons are taller and heavier and are trained from a young age to fight. humans are trained to think. klingons are bad at science, humans are bad at hand to hand combat. borg are cybernetically enhanced end of. jemhadar are bred for fighting. we see the main characters hold their own occasionally because the main characters are op in all trek, and in most sci fi.

lol what evidence do you have for that?

any race can board and capture, thats what transporters are for and why every race has them. just some races are better at capturing than others. thats why klinks and dominion have troopships and feds and roms dont.

we saw them board ds9 and they appeared to do a good job against everyone but main characters and garak, especially since we already knew they couldnt win because the show would end.

klingons should have a troopship dedicated to combat, they are a warrior race. even if they just use the troops as a way to attack the ship for fun.

fed ships are explorers mostly.

it is 'not starfleet style' since starfleet combat is defence oriented, their ships are designed to defend the federation, while boarding enemy units is an offensive tactic. it doesnt fit with defending themselves.

of course starfleet are capable of boarding, its just they do it rarely and wouldnt have a mass production ship designed to carry boarding parties.

You always turn something into some long arguement or debate, my entire first paragraph is my opinion deal with it.

The klingons boarded ds9 to fight everyone like i said, and if i remember correctly to get the cardasaian high council that garak and whats his face were protecting in that coridor, and i didnt say klingons were not strong or good warriors.

posted on January 8th, 2011, 11:35 pm

You did say that Klingons haven't been shown to board things to capture them though, which they did do in a movie, boarding the Enterprise over the Genesis.

Boarding DS9 probably had a secondary goal of distracting the crew and making it harder to concentrate on the attacking ships.

posted on January 8th, 2011, 11:42 pm

You did say that Klingons haven't been shown to board things to capture them though, which they did do in a movie, boarding the Enterprise over the Genesis.

Boarding DS9 probably had a secondary goal of distracting the crew and making it harder to concentrate on the attacking ships.

In which case i was wrong, but i dont remember this at all, i only have memory of klingons boarding with intend to fight and kill their enemys face to face which iv seen many times.

Im not sure which movie your thinking of, was that a kirk one it has been many many years since i watched one of those movies.

posted on January 8th, 2011, 11:46 pm

You always turn something into some long arguement or debate, my entire first paragraph is my opinion deal with it.

lol are you getting angry? 

if you dont want what you post to be challenged you can go make a blog, this is a forum, which by definition is a place for talk and debate. deal with that

star trek 3 the search for spock is the film tyler is mentioning, they boarded the enterprise which then 'sploded.

posted on January 8th, 2011, 11:49 pm

Yes, The Search for Spock. The Klingons boarded the ship to take it and its crew into custody and found only the Auto-Destruct countdown. Bringing in a ship like the Enterprise (especially Kirks one) would net the Klingons involved much prestiege among their peers.

Damn, Ninja'd by Myles...