Borg Command Cube
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posted on March 27th, 2012, 5:24 pm
Oh dear... so we see a volley of 4 torps hitting a real sphere in fleetops. Does it make boom? No. Is fleetops canon? No. Why do we introduce mechanics? Because we want to make the game fun.
A sphere running out of a cube is not fun, it looks kind of "why did you do that, why did'nt you do that earlier? Why didnt you use you energy in other aspects, like defense or offense - oh lord why?"
Why dont we introduce a starbase firing saber-class vessels instead of torpedos? It would look hilarious, wouldnt make any sense and nobody could tell "why the heck they are doing it". This would be en par with a command cube firing spheres.
A sphere running out of a cube is not fun, it looks kind of "why did you do that, why did'nt you do that earlier? Why didnt you use you energy in other aspects, like defense or offense - oh lord why?"
Why dont we introduce a starbase firing saber-class vessels instead of torpedos? It would look hilarious, wouldnt make any sense and nobody could tell "why the heck they are doing it". This would be en par with a command cube firing spheres.
posted on March 27th, 2012, 6:17 pm
Last edited by eraldo on March 27th, 2012, 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Tanner_Rosso wrote:To add to your flawed assumption
1. I never said it was a full sized sphere i said a sphere.
2. If the borg were smart they would take a much larger fleet than they do to try to assimilate earth and the human race but then were would the story be.
3. If your in a game where you destroy a command cube then im pretty sure that whatever you have left should be able to destroy one mesly sphere that could come out if the option were given.
Plus fleetops is based in the future in which we dont know much about its up to them to decide how it works. Im just throwing out an idea i think would be cool. Queen escapes on sphere that ejects after cube is about to go boom.
1. I wasn't talking to you.
2. the borg don't send a fleet because they are so far away in the delta quadrant it takes massive amounts of energy to send just 1 ship anywhere near earth yet alone a whole fleet.
Oh dear... so we see a volley of 4 torps hitting a real sphere in fleetops. Does it make boom? No. Is fleetops canon? No. Why do we introduce mechanics? Because we want to make the game fun.
A sphere running out of a cube is not fun, it looks kind of "why did you do that, why did'nt you do that earlier? Why didnt you use you energy in other aspects, like defense or offense - oh lord why?"
Why dont we introduce a starbase firing saber-class vessels instead of torpedos? It would look hilarious, wouldnt make any sense and nobody could tell "why the heck they are doing it". This would be en par with a command cube firing spheres.
Why did you bother dedicating a post purely defending what i said?
I said realistically 4 of the feds most recent and powerful torps slamming into a sphere would destroy it and that it would be dumb for fleet ops to do this and you sarcastically post why it was be dumb as well? did you even read my post?
posted on March 27th, 2012, 8:27 pm
Sheva wrote:.......
A sphere running out of a cube is not fun, it looks kind of "why did you do that, why did'nt you do that earlier? Why didnt you use you energy in other aspects, like defense or offense - oh lord why?"
......
Well the why wouldn't be hard to explain, you now asume were talking about 2 separate ships...
I would asume its like 1 ships leaving its damaged part behind. The sphere contains power generation those nice borg alcoves and therefor computing and manpower and all the other stuff thats on every borg ship.
The only odd thing is that you would have weapon arrays in the middle of the ship but the rest of the sphere part is actualy used when it is inside a cube..... and even thse weapon arrays could be transported from the cube part to the sphere part but being underpowered do less damage then it would do in the cube.
posted on March 27th, 2012, 11:41 pm
I was talking to sheva not you eraldo
And nice thinking keeper, even though its pure speculation. The sphere uses the cube almost as a protective shield. and if the sphere would leave the cube it would leave it with little to know power.
the keeper wrote:Well the why wouldn't be hard to explain, you now asume were talking about 2 separate ships...
I would asume its like 1 ships leaving its damaged part behind. The sphere contains power generation those nice borg alcoves and therefor computing and manpower and all the other stuff thats on every borg ship.
The only odd thing is that you would have weapon arrays in the middle of the ship but the rest of the sphere part is actualy used when it is inside a cube..... and even thse weapon arrays could be transported from the cube part to the sphere part but being underpowered do less damage then it would do in the cube.
And nice thinking keeper, even though its pure speculation. The sphere uses the cube almost as a protective shield. and if the sphere would leave the cube it would leave it with little to know power.
posted on March 30th, 2012, 10:28 pm
If a sphere could be destroyed by a single volley, the borg wont be a threat. But lets go pint over point:
Erm... no. If the borg have the tech to do it, they simply do it. If they think, one cube is enough, then they send one. If they think, that they should be sure, then they send 10 and the one most damaged will always fall back, regenerate, re-engage, switch place with another cube and they will obliberate the whole alpha quadrant.
Why did'nt they do it? Because the storywriters put just one there.
Why kicked the cube a sphere out of his mouth? Because the storywriters inserted it. In a real battle-engagement, it would'nt make any sense to pull it out THAT late in battle. If the cube had spheres docking, then he would have launched them to support his attack before or right at the beginning of the battle.
The borg arent that stupid not to be able to calculate tactical ans strategic powers in an upcoming battle. If a cube is against 30 or 40 ships, the cube WILL take appropriate measures - like launching battle-support.
I'm still at it, this sphere was a larger escape pod that was never meant to do battle and got the real-valued strength of a borg-probe. If that was a real sphere but only with less power, it would withstand 4 direct hits even when the power ist off, just because of its mass and hull-armor, that doesnt need any energy.
2. the borg don't send a fleet because they are so far away in the delta quadrant it takes massive amounts of energy to send just 1 ship anywhere near earth yet alone a whole fleet.
Erm... no. If the borg have the tech to do it, they simply do it. If they think, one cube is enough, then they send one. If they think, that they should be sure, then they send 10 and the one most damaged will always fall back, regenerate, re-engage, switch place with another cube and they will obliberate the whole alpha quadrant.
Why did'nt they do it? Because the storywriters put just one there.
Why kicked the cube a sphere out of his mouth? Because the storywriters inserted it. In a real battle-engagement, it would'nt make any sense to pull it out THAT late in battle. If the cube had spheres docking, then he would have launched them to support his attack before or right at the beginning of the battle.
The borg arent that stupid not to be able to calculate tactical ans strategic powers in an upcoming battle. If a cube is against 30 or 40 ships, the cube WILL take appropriate measures - like launching battle-support.
I'm still at it, this sphere was a larger escape pod that was never meant to do battle and got the real-valued strength of a borg-probe. If that was a real sphere but only with less power, it would withstand 4 direct hits even when the power ist off, just because of its mass and hull-armor, that doesnt need any energy.
posted on March 31st, 2012, 2:11 am
Last edited by godsvoice on March 31st, 2012, 2:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
I think this is all laid on some very very thin ice.
Everything canon could be simply because the writers wanted it that way.
Nothing states anything concrete about Borg strategy.
Launching a Sphere could be a last ditch effort. Consider how anyone might fight. We fight with what we know to be best, but out of desperation, a heavy shoe might look like a decent enough weapon if we really needed it. This does not mean that we equip every person with a heavy shoe at all times. (Using the sphere from the get-go hardly a given ... we don't send women and children to fight, and if we do, it is an act of pure desperation, or perhaps a part of a culture ... for all I know there was an ancient civilization that did use women and children in war, but just in general I highly doubt it. Furthermore, even if the Cube were holding 5 spheres, there is nothing to say how much they would have aided. Did the Ent. D ever launch all its shuttlecraft in a battle for there little bit of extra phaser power?)
Borg resources and allocation is anyone's best guess. Who knows how much the war with 8472 was costing them. It might have been a calculated risk scenario. If they transwarped a certain distance, a Command Cube maybe had a significantly high probability of being successful, and a fleet was not yet necessary. Even if at worse the Command Cube were destroyed, it could provide the Borg with some pretty valuable information about defences and so forth that would make a second invasion even more effective, minimizing risk significantly more.
Finally, from what I recall, the only reason the cube was defeated was Picard. He took command of the fleet and ordered an attack on a specific part of the cube that would result in its destruction. Even if Picard wasn't sure if it was what would destroy them, he at least knew where to hit them to make it hurt. Before arrival of Ent E. and perhaps without it altogether, the Borg may have quite well been successful.
The Borg could have had any number of reasons to believe the single vessel would have yielded better results, but circumstances not allowing.
I'm not really looking at the 4 torp scenario. Who knows really. There could have been damaged incurred with command cube blowing up all around it. In general, it probably wasn't that realistic.
But as for the other points about this thread recently, I really don't think there is enough information.
Everything canon could be simply because the writers wanted it that way.
Nothing states anything concrete about Borg strategy.
Launching a Sphere could be a last ditch effort. Consider how anyone might fight. We fight with what we know to be best, but out of desperation, a heavy shoe might look like a decent enough weapon if we really needed it. This does not mean that we equip every person with a heavy shoe at all times. (Using the sphere from the get-go hardly a given ... we don't send women and children to fight, and if we do, it is an act of pure desperation, or perhaps a part of a culture ... for all I know there was an ancient civilization that did use women and children in war, but just in general I highly doubt it. Furthermore, even if the Cube were holding 5 spheres, there is nothing to say how much they would have aided. Did the Ent. D ever launch all its shuttlecraft in a battle for there little bit of extra phaser power?)
Borg resources and allocation is anyone's best guess. Who knows how much the war with 8472 was costing them. It might have been a calculated risk scenario. If they transwarped a certain distance, a Command Cube maybe had a significantly high probability of being successful, and a fleet was not yet necessary. Even if at worse the Command Cube were destroyed, it could provide the Borg with some pretty valuable information about defences and so forth that would make a second invasion even more effective, minimizing risk significantly more.
Finally, from what I recall, the only reason the cube was defeated was Picard. He took command of the fleet and ordered an attack on a specific part of the cube that would result in its destruction. Even if Picard wasn't sure if it was what would destroy them, he at least knew where to hit them to make it hurt. Before arrival of Ent E. and perhaps without it altogether, the Borg may have quite well been successful.
The Borg could have had any number of reasons to believe the single vessel would have yielded better results, but circumstances not allowing.
I'm not really looking at the 4 torp scenario. Who knows really. There could have been damaged incurred with command cube blowing up all around it. In general, it probably wasn't that realistic.
But as for the other points about this thread recently, I really don't think there is enough information.
posted on March 31st, 2012, 12:49 pm
Thank you. This is exactly the base of information I wanted to tell: We simply dont know anything and it is highly biased by the authors.
If we put in a realistic scenario for every battle we have seen, the "fiction" would have ended in many other ways as we know. The Voyager would have been destroyed or assimilated countless times, the Enterprise D would have been destroyed in the 5 minutes time-gap, where the cube just waited and did not do anything until the strategy was revealed, the klingons would have invaded earth early on the expansion-wished of the federation and... blah... lets take Q as an example for the lack of the authors to create a realistic cause for effects.
And so we have the situation in the film. We have to manually adjust the power-balance between the scenes and the only reason for a sphere to fall on 4 torps are:
- It wasnt a real sphere but a little scout-one
- The sphere was already so heavily damaged, that it could break by default
- The sphere initiated a self destruct (in a few seconds, because it didnt see any realistic rate of success)
As for the torpedos: We saw a dominion bug being destroyed by the Valiant, the bug took 4 of them. The first two were enough to let all propulsion systems, shields and maybe many other things to break down, the other two destroyed the bare hull. Maybe three would have be enough also, so lets be gentle here. If the quantums of the valiant or similar strong like those of the Ent-E, then we could say, that they should have at least 2/3 of the strengh (Maybe we have different kinds of quantums, but I doubt, that the defiant-class would use less powerful ones, but for the sake of peace, lets say they had 2/3 of the maximum strength)
Then we can caluclate: 4 Ent-E torps are like 6 defiant torps, which would mean 2 bugs. So the sphere had the strength of 2 bugs left, when it leaved the cube. And yes: For what I saw, thats realistic. But show me a real sphere with the strength of two bugs... you see the problem?
If we put in a realistic scenario for every battle we have seen, the "fiction" would have ended in many other ways as we know. The Voyager would have been destroyed or assimilated countless times, the Enterprise D would have been destroyed in the 5 minutes time-gap, where the cube just waited and did not do anything until the strategy was revealed, the klingons would have invaded earth early on the expansion-wished of the federation and... blah... lets take Q as an example for the lack of the authors to create a realistic cause for effects.
And so we have the situation in the film. We have to manually adjust the power-balance between the scenes and the only reason for a sphere to fall on 4 torps are:
- It wasnt a real sphere but a little scout-one
- The sphere was already so heavily damaged, that it could break by default
- The sphere initiated a self destruct (in a few seconds, because it didnt see any realistic rate of success)
As for the torpedos: We saw a dominion bug being destroyed by the Valiant, the bug took 4 of them. The first two were enough to let all propulsion systems, shields and maybe many other things to break down, the other two destroyed the bare hull. Maybe three would have be enough also, so lets be gentle here. If the quantums of the valiant or similar strong like those of the Ent-E, then we could say, that they should have at least 2/3 of the strengh (Maybe we have different kinds of quantums, but I doubt, that the defiant-class would use less powerful ones, but for the sake of peace, lets say they had 2/3 of the maximum strength)
Then we can caluclate: 4 Ent-E torps are like 6 defiant torps, which would mean 2 bugs. So the sphere had the strength of 2 bugs left, when it leaved the cube. And yes: For what I saw, thats realistic. But show me a real sphere with the strength of two bugs... you see the problem?
posted on March 31st, 2012, 4:40 pm
Also remember that in reality, massive ships such as the Shinano have been sunk by relatively few torpedoes, and other have taken dozens of torpedo hits and survived. It's all dependant on where the torpedo hit, the reliability of the warhead, the damage control capabilities of the crew etc dozens of different variables.
It's why real life never comes down to a sheer war of numbers. There are always situations were the highly improbable happens.
It's why real life never comes down to a sheer war of numbers. There are always situations were the highly improbable happens.
posted on March 31st, 2012, 6:50 pm
Well, we all see this as a simulation or projection, because its fiction. But yes, if we would implement it into a game that holds a certain kind of capabilities to implement those factors, you are right with that. I can see Star Trek Excalibur being able to do something like that. The only game that was able to make a realistic fight-simulator for star trek was Klingon Academy so far and it had those mechanics like a critical hit on a certain subsystem or "just" a hit on an armor plate.
Because we are playing a simulation, we cant implement everything that migh occur in reality, like sub-detonations from secondary shrapnell-things from a torpedo. We have a certain force with a certain radius on a certain hit-range on a ship.
Because we are playing a simulation, we cant implement everything that migh occur in reality, like sub-detonations from secondary shrapnell-things from a torpedo. We have a certain force with a certain radius on a certain hit-range on a ship.
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