Assim Avatar

posted on July 7th, 2011, 7:54 pm

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posted on July 7th, 2011, 8:15 pm

@Boggz

You know, you keep talking about me having no evidence here, yet you have supplied none of your own.  Ideas don't get implemented by suggesting them and then demanding "proof" from those that say it's a bad idea.

You came up with "That is OP" which I was told is a strong claim in FO that needs to be proven. I only ask for evidence when you use such a strong claim...

Nearly all of the non-Borg races rely on one basic concept to hold off the majority of Borg early game strats:  Keep your ships alive until you have enough to kill Scubes / Probes in an engagement.  It's that simple.  From there on the process gets more complicated, but it's the early part that we're talking about here.

And for the other races you just have the miners in your equation...not that much different though. As Feds you try to reach crit mass as fast as possible...as Roms you do, as Klingons you do, as xyz you do. Not much of a difference for me.


@Myles

Drrrrrr, I am quite sure that you would have a hard time with the Borg that we have now. Assimilate is already powerful enough.

And that is why so many ppl use Assim avatar! Oh wait they don't - well but you don't care.

So you are saying if someone manages to beat almost every pro out there with one particular strategy, it has no merrit?

That's not my point. My point is, that I used a very similar argumentation when I was talking about warpins and Feds. There it was considered as "not valid" and that I should try harder against those ppl. HERE the very same argument IS considered valid (by the same ppl).

I wont mention names because I dont want to point anyone specifically out.

Here we are talking about credibility again. While Boggz can at least name one player, your can't name a single one. But still consider your argument as valid.
Just for curiosity, if the strategy would be so OP and easily playable by experienced ppl, why don't we see these strats in 1v1 almost all the time or in 2v2+? I guess you know the answert...

While scrambling to get higher crew ships you were forced to use trick tactics to buy more time.

What trick tactics are you talking of? I really can't remember times when Assim was that OP.

So you want to introduce something extrememly powerful to a race that is already on the verge of being too powerful so that you can abuse it

That it would be extremly powerful is still not proven nor is there any strong argument for it. And Borg is nicely balanced against Feds and Klingons atm - far away from what I would consider too powerful. Rom and Dominion have slight disadvantages here but this is known for ages.

So what is wrong with assimilate. Can you please explain to me why we Assimilate should get the changes that you suggest?

1. A different playstyle for Borg.
2. A compensation for lower supply (less ships you need to build).
Btw I could also ask you why Federation needs free ships at any place?

Attacking people who don't agree with your idea is not going to win anyone over Drrrr. Instead of oh so cleverly going off topic (mentioning Feds 3 times in a row), you could give us some useful facts on why your idea should be implemented.

Well, all you two did was saying "this is OP". No evidence, no strong (consistent) arguments - nothing. The OT was required to point out that Boggz is bending an argument as he likes to fit what he thinks - as a reminder - Boggz sees no problem with warpins + small yard stuff because it "can" be beaten by some ppl in certain cases. Here it is the other way round but still the same structure of the argument.

if you dont balance it via costs then its op, if u do balance via costs, then it makes assimilate have only 1 strat, assimilate stuff. you seem to realise this, and i say that forcing assimilate to play 1 strat for every single game will make even less people choose assim. you seem to actually want assimilate to be this crappy, having only 1 balanced strat, thats a pity.

Bullshit. As said above, it is not proven this would be OP...it's just your opinion based on the Arash-case. The idea gives Assim a new element to use which is boarding. Feel free to use it to cripple multiple ships or capture a single one. You can also use it to capture stations to a certain degree or miners in 2v2+ to give them to your ally. I don't see any overall reduction in options you have. You can still build ships but for higher cost as a compensation for additional offensice capability (boarding into red crew level/capturing).
Your limited imagination and understanding is what makes it difficult for you to see advantages in this idea. Oh, and your ass licking focus of Boggz position of course as well (realized this in several other discussions that you like his positions).

posted on July 7th, 2011, 8:19 pm

Again, I'm not the one asking for a change here.  Not providing "evidence" as you claim doesn't hurt me at all.

  Arguing with me to provide proof that it would be too strong does is not evidence that it wouldn't be too strong.

  Good luck .  I'm not the one trying to prove anything here.  You're the one trying to get something changed, not me.

posted on July 7th, 2011, 8:35 pm

You came up with "That is OP" which I was told is a strong claim in FO that needs to be proven. I only ask for evidence when you use such a strong claim...

actually there is more onus on you as you are proposing a change, you must justify that change, showing that it will have a positive effect. not expect people to have prove to refute your proposal. thats like me saying we should all eat an unknown berry plant, and its up to you to prove it is poisonous.

@Myles

you just quoted a bunch of stuff by funnystuff, the bit from me is at the end.

but i agree with him, so lets dismantle your agument.

And that is why so many ppl use Assim avatar! Oh wait they don't - well but you don't care.

some people do, i do, elim has used it against me. a lot of people dont use assim because they are too lazy to learn the slight differences. they think its assim spam or nothing, then whine when assims get s2 spammed to death.

your idea will make less people play assim, because the only strat will be assimilating ships.

Bullshit. As said above, it is not proven this would be OP...it's just your opinion based on the Arash-case. The idea gives Assim a new element to use which is boarding. Feel free to use it to cripple multiple ships or capture a single one. You can also use it to capture stations to a certain degree or miners in 2v2+ to give them to your ally. I don't see any overall reduction in options you have. You can still build ships but for higher cost as a compensation for additional offensice capability (boarding into red crew level/capturing).

haha you have no argument left so you just start swearing? wow thats weak, must be embarassing.

if u dont think it would be op then you just dont understand the borg very well.  they are quite well balanced now, what you're suggesting gives them a special from transmission but without the cost/time of transmission. yeah thats not gonna throw balance off at all(!) you can repeat your pointless assertion of "it wouldnt be op" as many times as you like, hell you can even believe your own flawed ideas, wont make it true. your idea is a bad one.

Your limited imagination and understanding is what makes it difficult for you to see advantages in this idea. Oh, and your ass licking focus of Boggz position of course as well (realized this in several other discussions that you like his positions).

oh wow man, you're giving me a headache by contradicting yourself. of course your idea has advantages, advantages for the borg, since they can now use boarding from the start. thats a big advantage, one they dont need. we could make warpins available at the start from starbase, that would have an advantage, bet you wouldnt like that

kissing boggz's ass that one's funny, boggz is one of the people on this forum i most fail get along with. just cos i dont get along with him doesnt stop him from being right though. he's right here, your idea would make borg op. have you ever wondered why me and boggz agree on stuff? no we're not clones, maybe we just both share ideas of what's correct...

drr, when will you stop digging? you cant win this, you should just give up before you pop a vein.

posted on July 7th, 2011, 9:55 pm

Easy folks - idea requests needn't be so hostile, and if you are opposed or married to a particular idea there's no reason to start getting upset and resorting to ad hominem attacks . If you've said your piece, be happy it's out there and everybody can read it - no need to prepare for a riot

posted on July 7th, 2011, 11:36 pm

All this idea requesting made me go into a dark room to cry 

posted on July 7th, 2011, 11:41 pm

Just makes me want to get some popcorn...

posted on July 8th, 2011, 12:14 am

I would just like to comment, if nobody minds?

I can see where both sides come from, and i enjoy playing Borg a fair bit, but i wont claim i know them very well etc.

Boarding is essentially long range transport through sheilds. Nothing more, nothing less. This mixes well with the "We will assimilate your vessel" style of the assimilate avatar, agreed.

However if it remains as it is, then it would allow the borg to essentially suffocate enemy vessels with drones, take for instance 4 scubes facings 4 monsoons (a basic scenario).

If boarding was availible from the start, then before the first shot is fired, one of the monsoons is either borg or in the red crew wise, thats a loss of 25% firepower perhaps adding to the enemy, a very large problem before a shot is fired.

There are a few options availible however to counter that i essentially see other races being forced to spam more ships to counter balance the ability to remove one or more ships from their control.

I therefore propose a change: assimilate get boarding from the start, however it is changed for that avatar only, perhaps only 5 or 10 crew at a time can beam from scubes, with it increasing in a size scale further up the tech tree. This would mean a large amount of vessels just to take control of a monsoon. Another special is added to the transmission matrix in its stead, perhaps giving a defensive boon, ie. "Due to new technological knowledge assimilated from various species, the strength of the hull plating has been increased by 10%" something like that. Or maybe even some sort of adaption bonus.

I don't mean to hijack this thread from Drrrr, incase that intent is given.

posted on July 8th, 2011, 12:34 am

I wouldnt mind a nanite module on the scube, dode, or adaptor.

posted on July 8th, 2011, 1:20 am

Just makes me want to get some popcorn...

Me to.

posted on July 8th, 2011, 1:40 am

I wonder, is it possible to make a special that scales based on the number of friendly ships nearby?

I'm thinking of a Dode/Diamond ability called "Coordinated Strike."  The ship fires a torpedo that drops the enemy's shields for a fraction of a second, during which time nearby allied ships attempt to board it all at once.

The number of boarding drones would be related to the number of ships nearby, but it could also have diminishing returns for the number of ships.  So for example 1 ship sends 20 drones, 2 ships send 40, 3 ships sends 55, 4 ships sends 70, and each ship after that adds 10.  Or it could be balanced however you like.

The point is, as long as the effect scales directly with the number of ships, it can become overpowered when a borg player spams ships.  If you could consolidate it into one effect, you could increase the power with small numbers and decrease the power with large numbers and have it be balanced for both situations.

I want to see more Assimilate support effects.  For example an adaptor/sphere module that prevents ships from restoring their shields nearby if they go down.  Maybe it could deal .001 damage to every nearby enemy ship every second.  If that wouldn't lag too badly...

posted on July 8th, 2011, 2:48 am

Why dont you just give the assimilator or adaptor the devastating attack ability?

posted on July 8th, 2011, 2:50 am

We should give Borg Tactical cubes transwarp!

posted on July 8th, 2011, 9:01 am

Yea and now I would like Dom or any other mod to cut out the spam here and place it in a different Thread.

The point why I requested prove by Boggz (and others) was that they came up with the potentially strongest argument against any idea, i.e. its OP. I asked for evidence regarding their expectations but all I got was "look at this one single good Borg player that can use and win with massing smaller ships". Thats all that is eneough for these ppl to make their OP argument valid.

When I said (in another discussion) there are (not even really good) ppl out there that can break hell with warpins and small ships on you, they yelled at me that this is not a valid argument for changing warpins and I should practice more/adapt strategy.

If you compare the two argumentations you'll likely see the similarities and that these guys use them inconsistently.

Referring back to the idea of boarding...it is always possible to discuss the amount of boarding capacities, the resource cost for chassis and other numbers. That is implicit at least for me to any idea...but good to see that some ppl don't understand the ideas here as starting points for discussions. They seem to think that any idea must be proven that well, that it can be implemented right from the thread.
Providing arguments why something should be added to a certain faction is also sometimes not required - i.e. implicit - especially if experienced MP players read it (and for those features mean more than for SP ppl). This, I thought, would be the case for assim avatar since he is not really assimilating anything right now, not even with his stronger assims.

@Myles

some people do, i do, elim has used it against me.

Argumentation is not your best skill right? So as an example for "some" you name yourself and one other person...nice try Myles.

your idea will make less people play assim, because the only strat will be assimilating ships.

If ppl don't want to rely on assimilation they can always use the other avatar. I really don't see a problem here unless it is the goal of different avatars to have the same strategies...again a weak argument.

haha you have no argument left so you just start swearing? wow thats weak, must be embarassing.

Go and discuss god, the bible or evolution with TChapman...

posted on July 8th, 2011, 10:03 am

@MylesArgumentation is not your best skill right? So as an example for "some" you name yourself and one other person...nice try Myles.

lol you wanna have a pissing contest on personal traits? fine, do you have a debating trophy?

your point (made through sarcasm) was: not many people play as assim, i gave you two people off the top of my head, right this instant. thats two people i myself can name. most of my games recently have been tourney, where a lot of people have been playing feds/opti/klink.

If ppl don't want to rely on assimilation they can always use the other avatar. I really don't see a problem here unless it is the goal of different avatars to have the same strategies...again a weak argument.

you really dont see the problem? it's pretty obvious, avatars are meant to impact gameplay and encourage certain strategies. but no avatar is designed to force only 1 specific strategy. avatars give you a little push towards types of strats, what you are suggesting would be a handcuff that would lock you into playing assimilate every single time.

for instance risner gets her boosts in the big yard mostly, but that doesnt mean all her strats ignore small yard. its an encouraging nudge towards the big yard, not: use the big yard or you will lose.

Go and discuss god, the bible or evolution with TChapman...

could you elaborate on that, looks like gibberish from here, i dont see your point. just for the record, i accuse you of demeaning yourself by resorting to swearing and behaving silly, because you have no other rebuttals.