Assim Avatar

posted on July 6th, 2011, 8:36 pm

@Myles
Feel free to build high crew ships against an Assim Borg. And also consider that the special energy is gone...in case there is turly no other choice, we can always increase chassy cost by x% for Assim avatar...

you mean higher than intrepid, well what's that then? you cant go for chassis 2 and warpins at the same time. you will get outnumbered and stomped hard, so you either do chassis 2 on its own and get outnumbered, or do double chassis 1 or chassis 1 with warpins and lose the chassis 1 ships.

and you cant fit any more dudes on miners. 75 (10 less than intrep) is the number. i guarantee you if u try get chassis 2 or warpins on their own, you will get scubes buzzing around stealing a miner every couple minutes, then escaping with 140 speed. and no your akiras wont catch them, neither will your warpins.

with any strat you cant get enough high crew ships to stop this boarding immediately. by the time you can make only akiras/warpins, you will have lost some chassis 1 ships, which will now be helping the borg beat you up. and the intreps they steal will tank your akiras/warpins too and they can still run around your mining taking a miner every now and then. by the time they get dodes you're buggered, 2 scubes, 2 probes, 2 dodes will quickly decrew stuff. as dodes can use boarding twice, and recharge energy fast. they could even use vinculum module (gasp, a dode that isnt double inter!!!) , to recharge the fleet for moar boarding. by this time even your 125 crew akira will be feeling rather empty when it loses loads of crew.

because as you tech up to higher crew ships, they steal the lower tech ships, then miners, and they are still building more ships, while you're still replacing the ones they stole earlier. and the more ships they have, the more crew they can steal.

if u increase the costs to make balance for boarding, you nerf early game ships as combat ships for assim, so basically boarding becomes the ONLY effective strat.

a more balanced way of doing this idea would be to have an expensive module for certain ships that gives boarding. still not something i would support, but it would be balanced.

posted on July 6th, 2011, 8:41 pm

I feel like the assim avatar should have more auto assim or nanite factory modules but the boarding ability is just go strong especially against like the klingons who have tiny crews

[Arash8472]

posted on July 7th, 2011, 12:06 am

Last edited by Arash8472 on July 7th, 2011, 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

i love the part on this thread where people forget that borg boarding is short range, have limited crew capability depending on chasis (min. 10 -20) , and the crew on the ships "fight" the borg crew. Lets not forget that the hull on certain borg ships are weak and are difficult to repair, and don't forget the part about weak sensor range, and finally special regeneration depends on the type of ship and dode's special which regenerates special has very little effect on borg ships (unless holding beam cube/sphere/diamond/pyramid)


P.S. STOP using my name .. also if you REALLY need to use ME as an argument use "Mr.A" or ask me! -.-


Edit: also i forgot to mention transmission matrix is super powerful early game but super weak later in game and it is too expensive to build early game but takes too long to build in late game.....

posted on July 7th, 2011, 1:12 am

But nanites are really powerful, guy we can't mention, plus the perfect logistics are really good too. So I don't understand why you say that its to weak

posted on July 7th, 2011, 2:52 am

i love the part on this thread where people forget that borg boarding is short range, have limited crew capability depending on chasis (min. 10 -20) , and the crew on the ships "fight" the borg crew. Lets not forget that the hull on certain borg ships are weak and are difficult to repair, and don't forget the part about weak sensor range, and finally special regeneration depends on the type of ship and dode's special which regenerates special has very little effect on borg ships (unless holding beam cube/sphere/diamond/pyramid)


P.S. STOP using my name .. also if you REALLY need to use ME as an argument use "Mr.A" or ask me! -.-


Edit: also i forgot to mention transmission matrix is super powerful early game but super weak later in game and it is too expensive to build early game but takes too long to build in late game.....

It's not a juggernaut ability on its own, the issue is with adding it to the fairly well-rounded Borg, Mister A sir.

posted on July 7th, 2011, 6:29 am

Aye, the whole point of this thread was to suggest giving the Assim Avatar Boarding in the beginning.

  With respect, that's an idea that will not happen the way Fleetops is currently set up.  Argue the points all you want, it would simply be too powerful.  Drrrr can go ahead and say this or that, but I don't need to test it to know that it would be an insanely powerful thing, regardless of whether it's Arash Pro-Borg or Boggz the Newb-Borg - it would be devastating.

posted on July 7th, 2011, 8:29 am

And here you lost your last bit of credibility to me, Boggz...sorry but if you can't bring any other arguments than "certain ppl beat you with massing Borg ships"...well that is your problem not mine and not a valid argument in my opinion (and in yours as well when it goes to Feds).

@Myles
Please stop talking about Feds only...and please stop doing so as if Fed has no other strats than going for Warpins.

@Fallout

So I don't understand why you say that its to weak

Its weak cause all the specials beside nanites are meant for single ships. If there is an armada of ships in late game against Borg only Nanites remain as being useful...single ship losses due to slicer or so are not relevant at this stage. Logistics is useless at this stage because you have expansions. Sensors are nice though but don't kill ships. Boarding requires micro, free energy and SR as Arash mentioned earlier.

posted on July 7th, 2011, 9:41 am

i love the part on this thread where people forget that borg boarding is short range, have limited crew capability depending on chasis (min. 10 -20) , and the crew on the ships "fight" the borg crew. Lets not forget that the hull on certain borg ships are weak and are difficult to repair, and don't forget the part about weak sensor range, and finally special regeneration depends on the type of ship and dode's special which regenerates special has very little effect on borg ships (unless holding beam cube/sphere/diamond/pyramid)

firstly, boarding has long range (800), not short range. combine that with speed of 140 makes hit and run viable. take a miner, then force the enemy to spend time either destroying it or recapturing it. borg have less incentive to destroy the miners as they dont rank.

limited crew per ship, but any half decent borg player can get several borg ships out with ease. a common start is 2 probe 2 scube 2 dode. that can capture anything from chassis 1 or  mining. it doesnt take long for scubes/probes to get energy back for boarding after use. it can easily be available by the next battle. so in each and every battle you face against the borg, you lose a ship and they gain one. this would only make borg balanced if they were horribly underpowered at present (which they're not).

and the dode special (not vinculum for holding beam) still has the effect of making boarding available even earlier. it may not recharge them instantly, but it is helpful. and a dode with a vinculum module/modules will regain its own energy faster for more boarding.

P.S. STOP using my name .. also if you REALLY need to use ME as an argument use "Mr.A" or ask me! -.-


Edit: also i forgot to mention transmission matrix is super powerful early game but super weak later in game and it is too expensive to build early game but takes too long to build in late game.....

fine player formerly known as arash.

@Myles
Please stop talking about Feds only...and please stop doing so as if Fed has no other strats than going for Warpins.

feds have the easiest time against borg due to torp spam and ability to survive the first borg attack. also i didnt consider only warpin, i considered all the fed strats, and how boarding would beat every one of them. i also considered chassis 2 spam, and how it fails. large yard would suffer the same problems, lack of numbers against the early game borg fleet.

if this applies to fed, it will apply to other races.

klinks: their crew levels are usually low. brels are insanely low, but rarely get used. kbqs have same crew as intreps, so are similarly vulnerable. kvorts are slightly (5 more crew) better, but not often seen against borg. susa is 90 as well, 5 better than an intrep, will be similarly boarded. sang, probably most people's first thought against borg, only has 70 crew, so by the time you can get a few sangs, you will be 1 shot boarded. if u go straight to vorcha spam then its most likely you lose (have some boarded some destroyed) early on. what a borg player could do with a miner is beyond me, you cant ktinga them, and you have your own tough miners, so i guess just destroy them with your starbase so the enemy cant rank off them.

rom: rhienn 60 nuff said, leahval has 90, 5 more than intrep, boarded just as badly, but you wont have intrep numbers, and losing 1 leahval is gonna be a huge loss. especially since they will now use captured leahval(s) to raid your puny miners/scout. gens, a good idea in general against borg, have 110 crew, so last a bit longer than leahvals, but if u double yard spam them you fail, because they are slow, and will never catch scubes, thats what leahvals are for, keeping up just long enough to get the kill with meta D. so if u go genspam you hold boarding off a little longer, but the scubes will beat your gens in plain old fashioned combat. and of course they'll board your miners. griffins, finally a high crew ship, 200 dudes, seemingly the holy grail, but really its the holy fail, griffins are a great idea usually, but against borg they are more of a supporting ship, as their beams wont cut the mustard, torps are what you hit borg with. and if u mix griffins in with lower stuff such as gens, then the gens just get boarded. if u want to have the high crew advantage of griffins count for much it has to be the lowest crew ship around, which realistically means spam them, which costs similar to leahvals and doesnt give you the same killing power.

dominion: bugs, does anyone build these anymore? dodes would crush them, but with 55 crew you could turn their bugspam into your borg bugspam bombers: 60 brave jemhadar....drones s2, 125, seemingly the answer, but intercept scube spam beats s2 spam. so not really worth it. and the boarding numbers wiill still get to boarding levels, just later. guess you could always go large yard, problem there is that you wont catch the scubes and they will destroy some mining unanswered. b5 fighters are better for eating small ships, not scubes, which will eat your fighters pretty fast as adapted photons dont miss.

@FalloutIts weak cause all the specials beside nanites are meant for single ships. If there is an armada of ships in late game against Borg only Nanites remain as being useful...single ship losses due to slicer or so are not relevant at this stage. Logistics is useless at this stage because you have expansions. Sensors are nice though but don't kill ships. Boarding requires micro, free energy and SR as Arash mentioned earlier.

this is all wrong. later in game dev attack removes shields really well and slicer gets kills fast. they are very useful, they stop the enemy running. and perfect logistics isnt useless, buying 4 miners of perfect logistics will repay the cost and start entering profit in 12 minutes, so keep those 4 miners alive (main base mining probably) for 12 minutes (which isnt a terrible risk) and you are now making money by doing nothing. there isnt always another expansion to go to, or the expansions left are hard to keep (borg dont really take the middle well without yards/cheap fed turrets). sensors (im assuming you're talking about data mining) are awesome, the ability to spot attacks early and respond with good positioning is one of the greatest advantages you can have. scouting means so much in this game, so having more sensor coverage will allow you to use detectors for so much more. and if u get the sensor relays you can drop them in any route an uncloaked enemy will take to your mining and you will see it coming every time. 10 supply is nothing in the late game, as borg just incubate supplies. boarding requires micro? thats the most half arsed excuse for something not to be op ive ever heard. remember 3.0.7 cascade feedback? it required a similar amount of micro, click the special, click enemy ship, kaboom. with boarding, click special click any low crew enemy ship, and it's your's. that's not a lot of micro. and in the later game you can put at least 1 holding module on a ship and recharge it with dodes to use boarding, which beams lots of drones over from bigger chassis. oh and i already mentioned boarding is long range.

posted on July 7th, 2011, 4:45 pm

And here you lost your last bit of credibility to me, Boggz...sorry but if you can't bring any other arguments than "certain ppl beat you with massing Borg ships"...well that is your problem not mine and not a valid argument in my opinion (and in yours as well when it goes to Feds).

  Erm ...

  Look ... you're suggesting a new ability for Borg early game.  I say it would be too strong.  You say it wouldn't.  You say Borg can be prevented from getting lots of ships early on.  I say - watch Arash's games because it proves you wrong. 

  The point is not that some people beat Boggz, the point is that Boarding is more powerful with many ships - and it's REALLY EASY for Borg to mass small ships early on.  The proof is in any game with Arash (who likes to stick to small ships).

  It's not about me losing to that, it's about your idea (boarding early game) being too powerful.  Get it?  A player like Arash is evidence that it would be too strong.  Someone using his tactics would be able to steal multiple small ships in any engagement = game over.  You're a good player too and you should know this.  I don't get what you're arguing about.

posted on July 7th, 2011, 5:37 pm

Your whole argument is based on a single player's skill with Borg. How many other people are there that can play Borg as well as Arash can (with small ships)?
You are still lacking any hard evidence by numbers (maybe Dom can help you there) that it would be such a huge problem.

Again to get back to the topic. If there would really be a problem, one could always increase chassi cost (which I said 2 times before). And, other than Myles, I don't see a problem that it will reduce the available strats for Assim avatar. Instead it will force the avatar to do what it is meant for - "assimilate instead of building own ships". But that is a second step.

posted on July 7th, 2011, 6:00 pm

Again to get back to the topic. If there would really be a problem, one could always increase chassi cost (which I said 2 times before). And, other than Myles, I don't see a problem that it will reduce the available strats for Assim avatar. Instead it will force the avatar to do what it is meant for - "assimilate instead of building own ships". But that is a second step.

if you dont balance it via costs then its op, if u do balance via costs, then it makes assimilate have only 1 strat, assimilate stuff. you seem to realise this, and i say that forcing assimilate to play 1 strat for every single game will make even less people choose assim. you seem to actually want assimilate to be this crappy, having only 1 balanced strat, thats a pity.

posted on July 7th, 2011, 6:05 pm

@Myles
Please stop talking about Feds only...and please stop doing so as if Fed has no other strats than going for Warpins.

Earlier on...

Did you get the point in what I was saying? Especially about the Feds?

This is not OP...you guys just need to rethink your strats (as you teach us when we claim inbalances related to Feds). The Borg should not be allowed to have an armada of Scubes.

Drrrrrr, I am quite sure that you would have a hard time with the Borg that we have now. Assimilate is already powerful enough.

And Boggz, since when do you measure OPness of a strategy (or faction) by one single player's skills?
Maybe you should try harder vs Arash and rethink your strategies instead of rating ideas as OP just because you can't handle Arash as Borg...

So you are saying if someone manages to beat almost every pro out there with one particular strategy, it has no merrit? I myself have gotten a lot of things nerfed personally. For example: the Akira. Arash is not the only Borg player out there that has proven to be almost impossible to beat. I wont mention names because I dont want to point anyone specifically out.

@Myles
Feel free to build high crew ships against an Assim Borg. And also consider that the special energy is gone...in case there is turly no other choice, we can always increase chassy cost by x% for Assim avatar...

Do you remember the earlier patches when Assimilate was almost impossible to beat? When your scout got down to the enemy's base, and saw that they were assimilate, the only thing that you could do was tremble in fear. While scrambling to get higher crew ships you were forced to use trick tactics to buy more time. A lot more time. By the way, this was a 2v2 on a huge map such as "The Very First Map".

The same argumentation several ppl used when Warpins and Fed strats were discussed. What Boggz and some other fanboys say is either "Try harder" or "I can beat Feds lalala". The point is, that good or above average ppl can use certain faction strats (like warpin rush) in a way that they become OP. 

You are the one that keeps bringing this up! So you want to introduce something extrememly powerful to a race that is already on the verge of being too powerful so that you can abuse it, and then tell "Boggz and some other fanboys" to "try harder". Back in 3.1.7, things used to be very different. Warpins and the Assimilate Avatar used to be some of the most powerful and hard to beat tactics in the game. Ever since then, they both have gotten nerfed more and more with each and every  patch. Now that we are finally closer than ever to having these abilities balanced, you still have to complain.
So what is wrong with assimilate. Can you please explain to me why we Assimilate should get the changes that you suggest? Boarding is extrememly powerful and takes very little energy. Imagine an assimilator taking over a minning station in less than 10 seconds.

And here you lost your last bit of credibility to me, Boggz...sorry but if you can't bring any other arguments than "certain ppl beat you with massing Borg ships"...well that is your problem not mine and not a valid argument in my opinion (and in yours as well when it goes to Feds).

Dude, right now I want you to reread all of your posts and realise what a hypocrite you are being. You say that Boggz has no valid argument when your reasoning involves a completely different situation...
Attacking people who don't agree with your idea is not going to win anyone over Drrrr. Instead of oh so cleverly going off topic (mentioning Feds 3 times in a row), you could give us some useful facts on why your idea should be implemented. Maybe Boggz will show more "credibility
when you show some yourself.

posted on July 7th, 2011, 7:44 pm

Maybe I should put it this way, Drrrr.

  If you give Assim the boarding ability - everything else will lose.  I will lose.  It doesn't have to be Arash.  If you were Fed / Klingon / Dominion / Romulan vs. my Borg - you would lose.

  Nearly all of the non-Borg races rely on one basic concept to hold off the majority of Borg early game strats:  Keep your ships alive until you have enough to kill Scubes / Probes in an engagement.  It's that simple.  From there on the process gets more complicated, but it's the early part that we're talking about here.


  You know, you keep talking about me having no evidence here, yet you have supplied none of your own.  Ideas don't get implemented by suggesting them and then demanding "proof" from those that say it's a bad idea.

posted on July 7th, 2011, 7:46 pm

I believe borg assim avatar is primarily being hurt because of unlimited free crew for all races
Yes i know crew is annoying to manage and having it as a resource is frustrating... but what if we have it implemented back but with no limit and could have a special facility that increases the amount of crew you gain. So in the end it will help assim avatar but also hurt assim avatar cuz they gota re-crew ships they capture/kill crew off.


edit: maybe i should make a topic demanding people saying my name cuz my name is MENTIONED over 10+ times now -.- on this page ALONE! OMG!

posted on July 7th, 2011, 7:49 pm

If they did that, the Incubation Centre and Auto-Assimilator would be quite useful in a new way.