3.1.2 B'rel balancing discussion
posted on June 22nd, 2010, 2:43 am
Last edited by DOCa Cola on June 24th, 2010, 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ok, so here goes:
I've been playing alot of 3.1.2 and I'm SUPER pleased with how the balance has been in comparison to previous versions. I have noticed, though, that there are a number of units that have become ... almost not worth building. The unit in question right now is the B'rel. Either avatar, really. I'll take us on a short trip down memory lane
So in 3.0.7 we saw HORDES of B'rel spam due to the fact that it was cheap, fast to produce, and able to be made from 3 yards. What a nightmare.
In 3.1.1 the B'rel spam was STILL a very viable strategy as they didn't take much supply and could be produced still at 56 seconds apiece from 3 yards. Sadly the problem remained.
As of 3.1.2 the B'rels got a buid time increase of up to 86 seconds; the same as the much more powerful (and more expensive) K'vort and nearly as long as the all-around excellent K'beaj'q. The spam problem was remedied, but the problem of B'rels vs. ANY OF THOSE OTHER SHIPS became a bit of an issue. Online now, the B'rel is rarely used simply because it takes a very long time to build and the resources it takes to create do not "live" as long. The KBQ is a MUCH better investment because the supplies that are invested into that ship are MUCH more likely to live on and get kills.
SUPPLY:
Supply became an enormously major factor for the Klingons in 3.1.0. The cot for purchasing supplies went from 750 to 1500, making supply purchase in 1 v 1 matches almost a game-ender. The upside was that, upon ranking up, Klingon vessels now gain supplies. These are our facts
.
The problem however, is that for a ship like the B'rel that gains supplies upon ranking up like any other vessel, they only gain 1/3 of their own supply cost. For Battleships and cruiser this is easy because they tend to live longer and thus acquire more kills. B'rels do not live long, nor are they really MEANT to with a defense of 11. The purpose of the B'rel (semi-cloak detect and Countering Long range units) is very difficult for them to fulfill because they are the first to be destroyed in battles (having the lowest defense). Thus, B'rels tend to not even remotely make up for their expense in supplies and are generally avoided in favor of Kvorts and KBQ early on, while Vupta take over the Manual-targetting role later.
My suggestion to keep the B'rel useful and the staple of the Klingon Empire (without becoming spammable) is:
Make the B'rel into the "Harvester". Let it gain a MUCH higher supply rate than other ships upon rank-up. If the B'rel even gained it's own supply cost (11), or even around 3/4 (9) back from every kill, the Klingons would benefit from two things:
1. An easier way to increase their supply stockpiles before having to purchase the Crippling Purchase
2. A reason to MAKE and KEEP the B'rels in production
Now ... some of you might say things like:
[tt]"OMFGROFLCOPTER! If you do that, we'll just see nothing but B'rels and the Klingons will never run out of Supply!!!!! WOWZORSROFLSAURUS!"[/tt]
Answer: Well ... not really. B'rels no longer destroy EVERYTHING in the game. There are LOTS of counters to short range units now. ESPECIALLY short ranged units primarily armed with pulse weapons and weak to short range units. Not only that, but once the game progresses a straight B'rel spam would be silly because they alone are still too weak to overpower better units. Supply itself doesn't make you win the game
.
[tt]BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT, if the B'rel gains SO much supply on rankup, why use Kvorts or KBQ or ANYTHING ELSE FFSFTWOMFGHAXFTW!!!!????[/tt]
Because those units LAST LONGER. They do MORE damage, absorb more damage, and have different abilities and uses. They all require about the same build-time, so there is not more chance of being spammed by B'rels than there is being spammed by KBQ (cause we don't see that at ALL now, do we?) or Kvorts. The Battle-Yard vessels last longer and do more damage and will rank up well on their own, giving back Supply and providing the strength the Klingons need to effectively fight the game to a win.
[tt]But hey! Why SO much supply! Why 3/4 to 100% of their own supply cost? What's wrong with the 1/3 they get now? (omfgorflsaurus ... quack)[/tt]
Good question. Here's why: First Gameplay, then Canon reasoning.
Because the B'rel just isn't really worth using now. As a counter to long range units they kinda fail because larger units can do the same job just as effectively. KBQ and Kvort do more damage even over the passive of the B'rel, have more damaging specials, and live longer (thus retaining their own supply cost). They are just overall a BETTER USE OF TIME AND RESOURCES.
They are good to counter other Klingons and Romulans in the early game because they can help see Cloaking ships. But as the game moves on the B'rels are so fragile that they will die even as ships begin to cloak. Sacrificing 11 supply in a B'rel (or more) to get that last kill on a spectre is NOT worth it at all when your supply is SO expensive.
Canon-wise ..... the B'rel is the most honorable ship a Klingon can serve on. Why? Because as Kor pointed out in that DS9 episode where he took on like 16 Bugs to regain his honor: you are almost GUARANTEED a glorious and honorable death. You are gonna die in combat and THAT's what causes the Klingon Empire to grant you supplies: your honor and your willingness to enter combat. A Klingon Warrior who destroys an enemy commanding a lowly B'rel DESERVES more honor and respect than the 'ptagh that sat in his Fancy-Shmancy Negh'var and gunned down some puny adversaries. Going to a glorious death with as many slain enemies etched into the blade of your knife is the Klingon way! Supplies are granted to those who charge force into battle REGARDLESS of how likely you are to die!
In short: The Klingons in FLops have always had the paradox of trying to tech-up vs. staying in low tech.
The B'rel has become somewhat antiquated in it's role so far.
I suggest making the B'rel what it should be: The Maker of great legends! May the Supplies Go to the Warrior Who Can Slaughter the Most Fed-Rats!!!!
I've been playing alot of 3.1.2 and I'm SUPER pleased with how the balance has been in comparison to previous versions. I have noticed, though, that there are a number of units that have become ... almost not worth building. The unit in question right now is the B'rel. Either avatar, really. I'll take us on a short trip down memory lane
So in 3.0.7 we saw HORDES of B'rel spam due to the fact that it was cheap, fast to produce, and able to be made from 3 yards. What a nightmare.
In 3.1.1 the B'rel spam was STILL a very viable strategy as they didn't take much supply and could be produced still at 56 seconds apiece from 3 yards. Sadly the problem remained.
As of 3.1.2 the B'rels got a buid time increase of up to 86 seconds; the same as the much more powerful (and more expensive) K'vort and nearly as long as the all-around excellent K'beaj'q. The spam problem was remedied, but the problem of B'rels vs. ANY OF THOSE OTHER SHIPS became a bit of an issue. Online now, the B'rel is rarely used simply because it takes a very long time to build and the resources it takes to create do not "live" as long. The KBQ is a MUCH better investment because the supplies that are invested into that ship are MUCH more likely to live on and get kills.
SUPPLY:
Supply became an enormously major factor for the Klingons in 3.1.0. The cot for purchasing supplies went from 750 to 1500, making supply purchase in 1 v 1 matches almost a game-ender. The upside was that, upon ranking up, Klingon vessels now gain supplies. These are our facts
.The problem however, is that for a ship like the B'rel that gains supplies upon ranking up like any other vessel, they only gain 1/3 of their own supply cost. For Battleships and cruiser this is easy because they tend to live longer and thus acquire more kills. B'rels do not live long, nor are they really MEANT to with a defense of 11. The purpose of the B'rel (semi-cloak detect and Countering Long range units) is very difficult for them to fulfill because they are the first to be destroyed in battles (having the lowest defense). Thus, B'rels tend to not even remotely make up for their expense in supplies and are generally avoided in favor of Kvorts and KBQ early on, while Vupta take over the Manual-targetting role later.
My suggestion to keep the B'rel useful and the staple of the Klingon Empire (without becoming spammable) is:
Make the B'rel into the "Harvester". Let it gain a MUCH higher supply rate than other ships upon rank-up. If the B'rel even gained it's own supply cost (11), or even around 3/4 (9) back from every kill, the Klingons would benefit from two things:
1. An easier way to increase their supply stockpiles before having to purchase the Crippling Purchase
2. A reason to MAKE and KEEP the B'rels in production
Now ... some of you might say things like:
[tt]"OMFGROFLCOPTER! If you do that, we'll just see nothing but B'rels and the Klingons will never run out of Supply!!!!! WOWZORSROFLSAURUS!"[/tt]
Answer: Well ... not really. B'rels no longer destroy EVERYTHING in the game. There are LOTS of counters to short range units now. ESPECIALLY short ranged units primarily armed with pulse weapons and weak to short range units. Not only that, but once the game progresses a straight B'rel spam would be silly because they alone are still too weak to overpower better units. Supply itself doesn't make you win the game
.[tt]BUT BUT BUT BUT BUT, if the B'rel gains SO much supply on rankup, why use Kvorts or KBQ or ANYTHING ELSE FFSFTWOMFGHAXFTW!!!!????[/tt]
Because those units LAST LONGER. They do MORE damage, absorb more damage, and have different abilities and uses. They all require about the same build-time, so there is not more chance of being spammed by B'rels than there is being spammed by KBQ (cause we don't see that at ALL now, do we?) or Kvorts. The Battle-Yard vessels last longer and do more damage and will rank up well on their own
, giving back Supply and providing the strength the Klingons need to effectively fight the game to a win.[tt]But hey! Why SO much supply! Why 3/4 to 100% of their own supply cost? What's wrong with the 1/3 they get now? (omfgorflsaurus ... quack)[/tt]
Good question. Here's why: First Gameplay, then Canon reasoning.
Because the B'rel just isn't really worth using now. As a counter to long range units they kinda fail because larger units can do the same job just as effectively. KBQ and Kvort do more damage even over the passive of the B'rel, have more damaging specials, and live longer (thus retaining their own supply cost). They are just overall a BETTER USE OF TIME AND RESOURCES.
They are good to counter other Klingons and Romulans in the early game because they can help see Cloaking ships. But as the game moves on the B'rels are so fragile that they will die even as ships begin to cloak. Sacrificing 11 supply in a B'rel (or more) to get that last kill on a spectre is NOT worth it at all when your supply is SO expensive.
Canon-wise ..... the B'rel is the most honorable ship a Klingon can serve on. Why? Because as Kor pointed out in that DS9 episode where he took on like 16 Bugs to regain his honor: you are almost GUARANTEED a glorious and honorable death. You are gonna die in combat and THAT's what causes the Klingon Empire to grant you supplies: your honor and your willingness to enter combat. A Klingon Warrior who destroys an enemy commanding a lowly B'rel DESERVES more honor and respect than the 'ptagh that sat in his Fancy-Shmancy Negh'var and gunned down some puny adversaries. Going to a glorious death with as many slain enemies etched into the blade of your knife is the Klingon way! Supplies are granted to those who charge force into battle REGARDLESS of how likely you are to die!
In short: The Klingons in FLops have always had the paradox of trying to tech-up vs. staying in low tech.
The B'rel has become somewhat antiquated in it's role so far.
I suggest making the B'rel what it should be: The Maker of great legends! May the Supplies Go to the Warrior Who Can Slaughter the Most Fed-Rats!!!!
posted on June 22nd, 2010, 2:52 am
I actually like this a lot. It makes the Brel worthwhile, while not making it so powerful you won't build anything else. They're often throw away ships unless your ability to micro them is perfect. It's the kind of ability a Dahar master like Kor would have loved. 
I would make brels again if they had this kind of ability. 
I would make brels again if they had this kind of ability. 
posted on June 22nd, 2010, 2:54 am
Can't say much more than "Dominus_Maximus_Penisface gives his seal of approval"
(See below for seal)
(See below for seal)
posted on June 22nd, 2010, 4:34 am
Dominus_Noctis wrote:
+1
BUT
-5 for all cap topic. this topic will be closed and reopened with small caps I can feel it...
so total score -4 xD
posted on June 22nd, 2010, 5:24 am
Hehe I always try to spam B'rels in a game just... well because... I don't know just for fun!
Its like watching nemesis. I love it because it's star trek
, yet I hate it because it really sucks. 
Anyway you go boggz! make my brel spamming worth while!
Its like watching nemesis. I love it because it's star trek
, yet I hate it because it really sucks. Anyway you go boggz! make my brel spamming worth while!
posted on June 22nd, 2010, 8:44 am
funnystuffpictures wrote:Hehe I always try to spam B'rels in a game just... well because... I don't know just for fun!
Hahha me too!
I only buiild B'rels just because I like them. They are WAY too Klingon NOT to use
. We saw them in Every Star Trek movie that featured the Klingons.Sadly, they are only used for fun by me.
make my brel spamming worth while!
Hahah! Hopefully this wouldn't allow spamming
. Think about it: The B'rels still take 86 seconds to produce. They are still weak in defense. Making nothing but B'rels while your opponent counters you with Monsoons, Intrepids, Defiants, Shrikes, Leahvals, Bombers, T-15, Kvorts, or Scubes is a POOR choice. You spam = you lose.HOWEVER, suddenly the B'rel becomes the TRAINING GROUND for Great Warriors! If you are Dominion and need better supply income, you start to manufacture Ketracel White through the facilities. If you are Klingon and you need Supplies, you send out your eager warriors into battle in the cheapest and most honorable ship you can build to raid the enemy and gain honor for your faction!!!! They will take the fight to the enemy, strike fear in to your opponent's freighters, builders, and patrol ships, all the while drawing new warriors and their supplies into the folds of your fleet!
Hence: If you are a Klingon and you are struggling for Supplies, what do you do?
Right now you build the most efficient unit you can in terms of how likely it is to return it's supply. To mean that says either the Vorcha, KBQ, or Kvort. These units are very hard to destroy and will likely survive, thus keeping their supplies intact. However, THIS IS NOT THE KLINGON WAY! B'rels at maybe 10 Supply or so that are BUILT to GAIN SUPPLY through honorable battle will be a cheap and effective way to keep the Empire in battle at all times to bring support from the other houses of throughout the empire. A commander that can urge his warriors to victory even in the ancient B'rel is worth supporting!
The B'rel remains a staple throughout the game. Even though it is still weak and easy to destroy, even a single rankup will generate enough supply to keep the Empire rolling. All other factions have a way to easily acquire the supply they need. Whether through mining, Incubation, or cheap purchase/low supply cost, the other factions manage to keep a steady and reasonable flow of supplies for their ships, allowing them to excel on maps that are large or small. The Klingons suffer from enormous costs for their supply purchase and VERY low gain on their rankups. Only when a player Rushes something higher in the tech tree like Negh'Var or Luspets/Vorcha do they see a Supply gain that is anything even REMOTELY self-sustaining.
WHy should a warrior CONSTANTLY in glorious battle not be given the supply he needs?
RAWR!
posted on June 22nd, 2010, 8:50 am
we actually changed the supply gain per rankup, to scale better with default vessel strength (stronger vessels yielding more supplies). To soften the first steps of supply gain in early game, the prices got lowered for the Klingons.
The B'rel also got a new special ability, actually working with supplies, which helps its survivability. More changes to come in the next patches as we introduce the faction redos step by step
The B'rel also got a new special ability, actually working with supplies, which helps its survivability. More changes to come in the next patches as we introduce the faction redos step by step
posted on June 22nd, 2010, 8:52 am
posted on June 22nd, 2010, 8:55 am
posted on June 22nd, 2010, 11:57 am
Optec wrote:the Graviton Marker is replaced with a new special as mentioned in my post above
i'm sure the new special will be great, but i'll miss the grav marker, can it be assigned to another ship pwease?
maybe the vutpa, it would fit there, the vutpa uses the marker to slow down ships it wants to steal
posted on June 22nd, 2010, 12:20 pm
Optec wrote:we actually changed the supply gain per rankup, to scale better with default vessel strength (stronger vessels yielding more supplies). To soften the first steps of supply gain in early game, the prices got lowered for the Klingons.
The B'rel also got a new special ability, actually working with supplies, which helps its survivability. More changes to come in the next patches as we introduce the faction redos step by step
Wait?
It's new special works with supplies?
Doesn't it make the B'rel even more unappealing when it's special that should help survivability even more uses too valuable supplies?
And Stronger Vessels gain more supplies... that means the B'rel still doesn't get enough to be a valuable asset of a real Klingons Fleet?
And if everything got a lower Price it still doesn't help the B'rel...
posted on June 22nd, 2010, 12:22 pm
posted on June 22nd, 2010, 12:40 pm
posted on June 22nd, 2010, 12:42 pm
sounds good, i loved using the graviton marker, the replacement will probably be more fun.
posted on June 22nd, 2010, 1:09 pm
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