Well thats no fun!
posted on January 17th, 2010, 2:46 am
RYDERSTORM wrote:I will problably get burned for this but whatever.
In my oppinion the mainly online players do have a "elitist" attitude towards AI players. Well I would use the phrase "polite snob" actually. So this causes the mainly AI players to become defensive. But anyways I am not surprised this thread has turned into a flame war basicly.
Both sides bring up valid points. Both sides are right. Both sides are wrong. If Babylon 5 has taught us anything its that there are 3 sides to any argument. your side, their side, and the truth.
And the truth is....its just a fraking game so chill out.
Hmm ... I agree that many of us who get REALLY into the process of trying to see where the game loses its balance can get a little ... pushy maybe?
Dom, Mal, myself, Mort, and others spend a lot of time testing things out and playing against one another and watching games. We do this mainly so that we can feel confident in what we suggest to Optec for balance changes so that the game gets to be more fun for everybody!DarkDragon mentioned that he doesn't like "house rules" in online play. Nobody does as far as I know. House-rules come from something that people know it unbalanced but hasn't been fixed yet. We knew in online play that the bug-ram and the Sensor blackout were just too strong. So we agreed not to use them
. I don't think that's an elitist thing at all, just a decision to ensure that all factions at least get a level playing field if not the same instruments 
.To those who don't play online (and I know there are many), please just try to understand that imbalances make a HUGE difference in online play. Skirmishes against the AI are still lots of fun, but the tactics of it are fundamentally different. Lol, the AI used bug-rams over and over in 3.0.7
. When people pop up and start requesting things that CLEARLY arose because they had issues with the AI and not anything else, it's frustrating for those of us working very hard to make sure people can play against each other and have an equal chance 
.I feel that's reasonable
. 
posted on January 17th, 2010, 2:52 am
House rulz like that, and where no one is ever really finished off, you just quit before you lose, are the reasons I don't like to play online anymore. its just gets too personal. I would rather someone play to the full extent of their abilitys and creame me, rather than go easy on me, and just let me suffer before delivering the final blow. I guess what I'm saying is that I just like the AI better than all of you 
posted on January 17th, 2010, 2:57 am
Adm. Zaxxon wrote:House rulz like that, and where no one is ever really finished off, you just quit before you lose, are the reasons I don't like to play online anymore. its just gets too personal. I would rather someone play to the full extent of their abilitys and creame me, rather than go easy on me, and just let me suffer before delivering the final blow. I guess what I'm saying is that I just like the AI better than all of you
I leave that up to my opponent, and I'll usually ask as you know
. On the opposite side of things, playing against the AI can offer some reassurance, as it won't get mad or stop playing with you if you quit on it too many times posted on January 17th, 2010, 3:10 am
Dominus_Noctis wrote:I leave that up to my opponent, and I'll usually ask as you know
HA!
And it doesn't get upset in FFA's when two people happen to attack it at once for a little bit
posted on January 17th, 2010, 3:14 am
Oh definitely - as we ALL know I'm absolutely perfect and the model of perfect etiquette. Damn straight I get upset when I feel like I keep getting attacked at the same time by both opponents . While we're at it, I also get upset if my milk gets warm too .
. While we're at it, I also get upset if my milk gets warm too .posted on January 17th, 2010, 4:34 am
Last edited by Anonymous on January 17th, 2010, 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
yes well...
heres my verdict after my first full game in 3.1. all you have to do is stop the AI's expansion. thats it. no expansion, no ships.
I played me feds against random merciless AI which was romulan. those 2 tavaras are killer... I lasted about 1.5 hours, and stayed ahead of the ai until one last battle where the tides were turned by my stupidity of buying sovereigns, instead of many other smaller ships. In the end, I was merely out numbered by the AI's spamming of shipyards, and smaller ships...
had it been AI hard, I would have creamed them.
personally, for me, the duel avatar use is a bu.... (never mind), but nothing that can't be overcome with a little practice, and expansive containment. and FYI I haven't actually played a game scene I started making my BSG mod, so a more experanced gamer could have won
EDIT: just to be clear. I like the fact that the AI can beat me. it is a huge improvement from stock a2. me against 7 AI hard...and I win...yeah, I like being beat every once in a while. It means I can still improve.
heres my verdict after my first full game in 3.1. all you have to do is stop the AI's expansion. thats it. no expansion, no ships.
I played me feds against random merciless AI which was romulan. those 2 tavaras are killer... I lasted about 1.5 hours, and stayed ahead of the ai until one last battle where the tides were turned by my stupidity of buying sovereigns, instead of many other smaller ships. In the end, I was merely out numbered by the AI's spamming of shipyards, and smaller ships...
had it been AI hard, I would have creamed them.
personally, for me, the duel avatar use is a bu.... (never mind), but nothing that can't be overcome with a little practice, and expansive containment. and FYI I haven't actually played a game scene I started making my BSG mod, so a more experanced gamer could have won
EDIT: just to be clear. I like the fact that the AI can beat me. it is a huge improvement from stock a2. me against 7 AI hard...and I win
...yeah, I like being beat every once in a while. It means I can still improve.
posted on January 17th, 2010, 4:45 am
Uff... What did I come back to?
You really took my post completely out of context, DarkDragon.
I never once said anything about a "join us or have no fun" philosophy. I merely stated that I'm always encouraging people to come play online because it is fun. It has nothing to do with the fun of playing a good game against the AI. As someone who has experienced BOTH, I can tell you that playing against people is definitely a blast. If that's not your bag, then that's fine. It will not, however, keep me from encouraging others to play a friendly game online with me and others. I remember being scared when I first started playing online. Tom and Dominus were very friendly to me, and when I lost they were very gracious. So why wouldn't I want to extend a hand to others who might be nervous the same way it was offered to me?
I replied because your posts just seemed to be anger towards online players for what seemed no reason. Also, Anthony has been a part of the forums for quite some time, and he knows the general strategies for playing against the AI. He was looking for specifics with the Romulans, which is what I gave him. Right now, Romulans are getting screwed in online matches, but they can still hold their own against the AI. You kind of hijacked his post without realizing it. But it's ok, because now everybody has.
Just remember that you should never assume. For when you do, you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me".
Trust me, if I ever direct anything toward you, you'll know it. I am not passive-agressive in any sense of the word, although I love to use irony.
We're probably similar in that regard, but I like the word passionate. So don't worry. To be fair though, I feel that you completely misunderstood what I was saying and took everything I said in the worst possible way. If you want to talk about it more, definitely pm me (since this thing has gotten so off track. Anthony just wanted to know about how to make the Romulans work! 
).
I definitely agree with you that the AI could come down some. But I've beaten them with Feds (which really is ez mode, imo), romulans, and borg. And the other 2 I just haven't played a whole game through, as I was mainly just testing stuff out. It's because I am confident that the strategies I give will work out as they have been tested thoroughly, whether they are for onine play or against the AI. And the times I've been mistaken, I clearly say so, rather than erase the post to hide the fact that I was wrong. If that's "elitist", then I guess I'm guilty.
But let me put you into an interesting spot. Where are all these strategies for the AI? Basically, all of the posted strategy comes from online players. Where are all the strategy posts from hardcore AI gamers, such as yourself? And that's where I'm heading. If you feel that this is such a neglected aspect of the community, then it's time for you to come out of the woodwork and provide strategies against the AI for your fellow AI gamers. Because right now, us "elitist" players are doing a lot of the work in the strategy department.
But there are also awesome people like Tyler and Megadroid and Adm. Zaxxon and others that aren't online players and have been doing a lot of work with modding or working on the single player campaigns. It seems to me that it's a lot easier to call someone "elitist" than follow their (Tyler, Adm. Z, and Megadroid) example. If that feels mean or off putting, I'm sorry. But some things I say come off as attacks when they are merely observations. (Sorry, I couldn't help it! I do so enjoy the reversal! )
Anyway, I hope I didn't just add fuel to the fire, as that was not my intent. If you take anything away from this post, please take away these points:
-This divide you see of online vs. not online is not shared by everyone, and it is certainly not shared by me, whatever your opinion of me. I see us as one big community, and many others share that view as well. This is a great game and we all want to do what we can to make it better. There's no point in trying to cause a rift in this regard, even if it is unintentional.
-There are always ways of helping the community, and we need as many people as possible to mod, or to make borg cost guides (I bring this up because anyone could have done it. I haven't checked to see if mining rates are still the same. They seem to be), or help megadroid with his mission mod, or make cool and interesting maps. The more active community members we have, the less "elite" some of us will seem to you, as we will simply be voices in the crowd. I would welcome that day.
You really took my post completely out of context, DarkDragon.
I never once said anything about a "join us or have no fun" philosophy. I merely stated that I'm always encouraging people to come play online because it is fun. It has nothing to do with the fun of playing a good game against the AI. As someone who has experienced BOTH, I can tell you that playing against people is definitely a blast. If that's not your bag, then that's fine. It will not, however, keep me from encouraging others to play a friendly game online with me and others. I remember being scared when I first started playing online. Tom and Dominus were very friendly to me, and when I lost they were very gracious. So why wouldn't I want to extend a hand to others who might be nervous the same way it was offered to me? I replied because your posts just seemed to be anger towards online players for what seemed no reason. Also, Anthony has been a part of the forums for quite some time, and he knows the general strategies for playing against the AI. He was looking for specifics with the Romulans, which is what I gave him. Right now, Romulans are getting screwed in online matches, but they can still hold their own against the AI. You kind of hijacked his post without realizing it. But it's ok, because now everybody has.
This was clearly not directed at you. Mal is referring to the millions of people who DON'T play online complaining constantly about how the Federation is SOOOOO underpowered omfg why aren't my Galaxies uber-Leet???!!!??!?!!?! They have a favorite race and want it to be so OP that it makes up for their lack of interest in getting better.
I wasn't sure, as he may have searched out my old posts, in which case I could have been perceived as favoring the klingons or some other race at some point, as I have in the past made some arguments about balance, some of which were misguided or due to inexperience, and I admit that.
I was just covering my bases just in case it WAS directed at me
Just remember that you should never assume. For when you do, you make an "ass" out of "u" and "me".
Trust me, if I ever direct anything toward you, you'll know it. I am not passive-agressive in any sense of the word, although I love to use irony.Don't get me wrong, I am a very fiery person when I get into discussions and/or arguments. It tends to rattle people that do not know me. Some things I say come off as attacks when they are merely observations.
We're probably similar in that regard, but I like the word passionate. So don't worry.
To be fair though, I feel that you completely misunderstood what I was saying and took everything I said in the worst possible way. If you want to talk about it more, definitely pm me (since this thing has gotten so off track. Anthony just wanted to know about how to make the Romulans work! ).I definitely agree with you that the AI could come down some. But I've beaten them with Feds (which really is ez mode, imo), romulans, and borg. And the other 2 I just haven't played a whole game through, as I was mainly just testing stuff out. It's because I am confident that the strategies I give will work out as they have been tested thoroughly, whether they are for onine play or against the AI. And the times I've been mistaken, I clearly say so, rather than erase the post to hide the fact that I was wrong. If that's "elitist", then I guess I'm guilty.
But let me put you into an interesting spot. Where are all these strategies for the AI? Basically, all of the posted strategy comes from online players. Where are all the strategy posts from hardcore AI gamers, such as yourself? And that's where I'm heading. If you feel that this is such a neglected aspect of the community, then it's time for you to come out of the woodwork and provide strategies against the AI for your fellow AI gamers. Because right now, us "elitist" players are doing a lot of the work in the strategy department.
But there are also awesome people like Tyler and Megadroid and Adm. Zaxxon and others that aren't online players and have been doing a lot of work with modding or working on the single player campaigns. It seems to me that it's a lot easier to call someone "elitist" than follow their (Tyler, Adm. Z, and Megadroid) example. If that feels mean or off putting, I'm sorry. But some things I say come off as attacks when they are merely observations. (Sorry, I couldn't help it! I do so enjoy the reversal!
)Anyway, I hope I didn't just add fuel to the fire, as that was not my intent. If you take anything away from this post, please take away these points:
-This divide you see of online vs. not online is not shared by everyone, and it is certainly not shared by me, whatever your opinion of me. I see us as one big community, and many others share that view as well. This is a great game and we all want to do what we can to make it better. There's no point in trying to cause a rift in this regard, even if it is unintentional.
-There are always ways of helping the community, and we need as many people as possible to mod, or to make borg cost guides (I bring this up because anyone could have done it. I haven't checked to see if mining rates are still the same. They seem to be), or help megadroid with his mission mod, or make cool and interesting maps. The more active community members we have, the less "elite" some of us will seem to you, as we will simply be voices in the crowd. I would welcome that day.
posted on January 17th, 2010, 6:36 am
posted on January 17th, 2010, 8:24 am
Hey man. I'm sorry you've had a bad experience on other Star Trek forums. I've seen a few forums from other sites, and they can get pretty stupid. Everyone argues about stupid minutia on a lot of them.
"Well the Borg Queen can't do this..."
"Uh huh yes she can!" "Argue Argue Argue Argue" "Jerk!" "Stupid!" "You know nothing of Trek!" "Your favorite show was Voyager, nobody cares what you think!" (My new favorite line)
I don't enjoy those people any more than you do. In fact, I chide myself when I get into the silly debates on this forum about the TV shows. I've made mention more than once that certain canon elements only exist because of budget, etc.
And I'm glad that you feel vindicated that at least one person agreed with you, then told us that both sides were wrong and used a cool Babylon 5 phrase. Although, I'm pretty sure I'm a three-edged sword.
Just remember that a trial by court of public opinion is no trial at all. And if that were the case, there were others who don't play online (or very rarely do) that agreed with me. One of them did before I even posted. So in actuality, I guess I was agreeing with him.
I understand what you're saying. It can sound like online players are putting other players down when they challenge them to an online game during a gameplay discussion. But look at it from a different perspective than your own (part of the three-edged sword thing) for a moment. When players are trying to have a serious discussion about balancing, and someone comes in with assertions that we know are dead wrong, and we argue and argue about it until we finally come to an impasse, what other recourse is there than to ask them to show us what they mean online? All we're asking is for these people to "put their money where their mouth is", to demonstrate what they mean in a visable, concrete way. What would you have us do? Ignore them completely and only discuss the issue with people who are on the same page?
Now that would be elitist. 
I can see the situation from your side of the discussion. All I'm asking you to do is to see it from mine.
And next time, might I suggest sending a pm if you think somebody was being too harsh with someone else, instead of bottling it up inside and letting it all out at once? We're all human beings, my friend. I've apologized to people on the forums for times when I spoke without thinking. I'd like to think we're all capable of learning and growing.
"Well the Borg Queen can't do this..."
"Uh huh yes she can!" "Argue Argue Argue Argue" "Jerk!" "Stupid!" "You know nothing of Trek!" "Your favorite show was Voyager, nobody cares what you think!" (My new favorite line)
I don't enjoy those people any more than you do. In fact, I chide myself when I get into the silly debates on this forum about the TV shows. I've made mention more than once that certain canon elements only exist because of budget, etc.
And I'm glad that you feel vindicated that at least one person agreed with you, then told us that both sides were wrong and used a cool Babylon 5 phrase. Although, I'm pretty sure I'm a three-edged sword.
Just remember that a trial by court of public opinion is no trial at all. And if that were the case, there were others who don't play online (or very rarely do) that agreed with me. One of them did before I even posted. So in actuality, I guess I was agreeing with him. I understand what you're saying. It can sound like online players are putting other players down when they challenge them to an online game during a gameplay discussion. But look at it from a different perspective than your own (part of the three-edged sword thing) for a moment. When players are trying to have a serious discussion about balancing, and someone comes in with assertions that we know are dead wrong, and we argue and argue about it until we finally come to an impasse, what other recourse is there than to ask them to show us what they mean online? All we're asking is for these people to "put their money where their mouth is", to demonstrate what they mean in a visable, concrete way. What would you have us do? Ignore them completely and only discuss the issue with people who are on the same page?
Now that would be elitist. I can see the situation from your side of the discussion. All I'm asking you to do is to see it from mine. And next time, might I suggest sending a pm if you think somebody was being too harsh with someone else, instead of bottling it up inside and letting it all out at once? We're all human beings, my friend. I've apologized to people on the forums for times when I spoke without thinking. I'd like to think we're all capable of learning and growing.
posted on January 17th, 2010, 2:00 pm
Rawr! 
Boggz likes to eat fire for breakfast! 
Thanks for being more level-headed than I, Mal.
Boggz likes to eat fire for breakfast! Thanks for being more level-headed than I, Mal.
posted on January 17th, 2010, 4:55 pm
Last edited by Anonymous on January 17th, 2010, 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lol, well if you feel I'm being elitist...
I'm actually gonna try to play online today(Game Spy if anyone still plays there. I dislike wippen and hamachi) and not just for your sake mal
I'm actually gonna try to play online today(Game Spy if anyone still plays there. I dislike wippen and hamachi) and not just for your sake mal
posted on January 17th, 2010, 4:59 pm
Could you please pretty please not play on Gamespy? I only know of about 10 people who can join and about 3 who can host games on that. Sadly, I'm part of neither of those groups too 
posted on January 17th, 2010, 5:01 pm
well the problem is that I don't have wippen, and I really don't like having it on my computer(for my own personal reasons), but if I can not get a game going at all, I will look into trying to get it. just for today
posted on January 17th, 2010, 5:02 pm
Actually right now there are 3 people on Gamespy, all three of which are ignoring me though...
posted on January 17th, 2010, 5:03 pm
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