Well thats no fun!

posted on January 17th, 2010, 12:50 am

Then you're in the minority Proton, as most posts about the AI get met with "Just play against humans".

It's why I don't bother posting about the bad AI anymore, I've accepted it won't be fixed and that the playerbase that prefers co-op games against the AI will just be ignored in favor of the online competitive play.

  Well I don't think that's really fair.

  AI will NEVER be as good as a human opponent.  The AI can't think ... it can only react to commands and directions given to it by a script.  I'm not sure you know how hard it is to script a "humanlike" AI but it is basically impossible.  Especially given the age of this game engine.

  "Bad AI" isn't really fair either.  If it's beating you ... how is it bad?  It has to cheat because it's tactics are literally predictable, it will waste ships because it doesn't know (for the most part) how to gang up on vessels and then run ...

  What exactly do you want?  Fleetops was made to be a multiplayer game if I'm not mistaken.  When people say "play against humans ..." you should try it instead of just getting pissed about the AI.  The day that someone can design an excellent AI in an RTS that doesn't cheat is the ... well I don't know what that will be ... but that person will be rich.

posted on January 17th, 2010, 1:10 am

I've really only one thing to say past the bitterness, and that is, the reason people really don't post strategies for against the AI, is really the same reason almost nobody posts strategies for online multiplayer play (btw, a lot of us do comp stomps with new guys to teach them the basics of cooperative play, so please don't play stereotype ). Many people just can't be bothered to. They have a strategy, but they don't want to post, either cuz they think it might get shredded, because they don't want to take the effort, or because it isn't an exact strategy, but more a general outline.

I agree with you that the AI is boring on merciless more or less, but I would definitely not say that it is too hard. On the second day that the patch came out, me and a bud teamed up against two teamed AI's and beat the snot out of it . Some people I've known to have difficulty facing off against 1 merciless with two other people. Asking for a "difficulty slide" thus becomes hard when not everybody is equal in terms of gaming. 

posted on January 17th, 2010, 1:15 am

The AI can not think use stratagy or tactics like a human player can so it simply "cheats" in order to blacence it out. When armada was designed the developers were to lazy to impliment a good AI. The AI doesnt even use resources, the only reason it gathers them is to make them seem a little more "human". We get a lot of people on here who will wine about this or that unit being underpowered (Galaxys and Soverigns come to mind) and the usual responce that they get is come play online with us and we will show you how effective they can be. And the final thing is that "mericlus" AI is not suppost to be easy in fact its ment to be almost impossible. I have only beat it once since the new patch and that was playing with stardust on my team (me and stardust vs borg mercilus and klingon hard)

[Boggz]

posted on January 17th, 2010, 1:18 am

Last edited by Boggz on January 17th, 2010, 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ok to answer a few of your questions Mal:

No, I don't choose to play against the AI because I got my butt kicked online

AHA!  There you go.  So you don't play online and you armchair this forum and it's members as being online elitists when really you just didn't want to take the time to learn online play.  None of us are severe or unkind.  (thoough on this post I'm totally gonna come across that way).  There are maybe 50 of us who regularly play together and we're all (almost) friends.  This attitude of yours is the only thing stopping you from having fun and letting us teach you online play.

Again, I don't subscribe to your "join us or have no fun" philosophy. If the game is meant to be played solely online, remove the instant action and AI and make that point clear. I used to play Aramda 1 and Armada 2 online, and actually had a lot of fun with Armada 1, but my experience was so tainted by the armada 2 community I am not willing to try it again. And that is only one of the reasons I don't have any interest in playing with "randoms" from these forums. I'd much rather play with my friends, as I stated above.

That's just mean ... We're not randoms.  Then play with your friends and stop judging the people you've never taken the time to play with.

I don't see what this has to do with my posts at all. I'm not suggesting changes to the game other than improving the AI.

No, you're also insinuating that the changes people who only play AI suggest should be "immune" to us saying "try playing online".

As for race favoritism, I pick random race every time I play. So that argument can never hold water against me.

This was clearly not directed at you.  Mal is referring to the millions of people who DON'T play online complaining constantly about how the Federation is SOOOOO underpowered omfg why aren't my Galaxies uber-Leet???!!!??!?!!?!  They have a favorite race and want it to be so OP that it makes up for their lack of interest in getting better.

And as for playing online in order to understand the game before ranting; again, I don't subscribe to the philosophy that this game can only be enjoyed online. And I think the AI needs to be improved so there is not such a discrepancy in strategy between playing agains the AI and playing against humans. Granted it'll never be perfect, but it does need to get better.

It's an RTS, mah boy.  AI's will NEVER be as much fun or as exciting to play against as humans.  NEVER.  They will always cheat, and you will always be unhappy because of it.

And yes, you do need to play online before you rant because WE PLAY THE GAME TOO.  Playing online is almost a whole different game than playing the AI.  You need to understand both before ranting about drastic changes.  It's called being fair.

As for this "philosophy" you keep referring to ... I think you should consider why you don't "subscribe" to it if the AI is pissing you off.  You say you don't buy that online is the only way to go ... but you haven't tried it with us.  I've never seen you on Wippien.  I think that after a few friendly games, you'd swear off the AI forever.  It's like what porn becomes after you start having sex.  JUST NOT THE SAME

Don't get me wrong, I am a very fiery person when I get into discussions and/or arguments. It tends to rattle people that do not know me. Some things I say come off as attacks when they are merely observations.

Likewise, some "observations" are really veiled attacks.  You may not think so, but that's how many are coming across.  Your apparent dislike for this "community" is thinly disguised.

However, post-3.1.0, I am not sure what changed, but the AI seems to cheat with its resources much more. Previously, attacking their expansions slowed them down somewhat, now, you're lucky if you can even pull off a successful early game attack as the AI will insta-build turrets and other defenses while still affording to build a fleet to harass you early game.

It got better.  It builds smarter things to stop you.  Since you are pushing for harder AI ... what's the issue?  Like I will say again:  if you want a more "human AI", try humans.  We come pre-packaged with excellent and sneaky tactics.  

So the only tactic that really works is to dig in and let them come to you so you can knock ships back into their build que, as that's essentially all you are doing to the AI.

Or rush them.  The AI doesn't start off as quickly as you do.

Add to that the fact they now get units from both avatars at the same time and they can use some tactics not even human players have access to, like building Phalanxes to attack you while having torpedo turrets to defend.

Again this is because the AI can't THINK.  It can only outbuild you and outproduce you.  You, being a human, get to test out your magnificent problem-solving and strategic capabilities to overcome those odds.  To Sto-Vo-Kor!  :badgrin:

I haven't quite found the ideal settings yet, but the only game I have won against the new AI (AI hard, not merciless) was with the AI sliders set to 1.30 or so, which feels like I am cheating quite a bit to beat the cheating AI, which just doesn't strike me as all that fun.

Then by all means, design an AI that doesn't cheat.  You'll find it's not as simple as you seem to think it is.

The fact is, you can't deny that the general attitude on these forums is play online or get out.

Oh yes I can ...  None of us has ever suggested to play online or get out.  Fact is there are numerous people who get VERY upset over things in the game and request broad changes because they were playing the AI on unlimited resources or just trying to build a "victory fleet" that got killed.  Thus:  we can say "stop boning yourself with your gameplay choices", "tough titties", or "come play with us!"  :thumbsup:

Personally I WANT to say "Tough Titties" ....

I'll just state once more the primary reason I don't play online is that I much prefer to be able to just pick up the game and play whenever me and my roommate decide we want to play. We don't want to wait for people we don't know to fill up our lobby, we don't want to deal with silly house rules that always crop up in online strategy games, and we don't want to play competitively in any manner.

That's not how it works.     You should try it before you abuse it.  Wippien is not Gamespy.

The only reason I even bothered posting is I had just gotten done reading at least 2 other topics where people had similar complaints about the AI and the only solution that was posted was "play online". So I wanted to present a different opinion and vent a little bit against the one-sidedness this community tends to display.

Again, "one sidedness" is encouraging you to play online?  The AI is the AI ... of course it could be better it can ALWAYS be better until it's a human.  But until it's as good as a human, you'll have to settle for HUMANS.

EDIT - And to just make an example: Mal, you often insinuate that people that only play against the AI are less "experienced" and therefore their opinions matter less when discussing matters of game balance and etc. This is the sort of attitude that drives people away from your little community rather than makes them want to play online with you.

Actually, it's attitudes like yours that's caused many of us to simply say: "come play online with us if you're discouraged playing the AI".  People getting upset about how the balance is vs. the AI and having a fit when they don't play online with us.

Mal does not deserve this attack ...  If you ONLY play against the AI then you ARE less experienced because you haven't experienced 3.1 online gameplay with the other players in the forums.  I am really appalled by your disrespect and immediate assumptions about those of us encouraging you to play online.





I don't understand your aversion to online play.  I do, however see that you have been building up hostility for quite a long time given your offensive/defensive nature that came out of nowhere.  Nobody online will treat you poorly and we will only offer you practice and fun games.  

Try it with us before you decide to brand us witches and burn us at the stake.  Mal, may I have a graphic or a song to back that metaphor up, please?

posted on January 17th, 2010, 1:42 am

I just like to say that the AI does need improvement and the sooner the better. I have taken upon myself to mod the AI as its as people say boring or no fun. However I do not have the level of knowledge of skills as the developers do with A2. FO is intended by the developers to be a multiplayer game. The fact is its their game and not ours so if we demand changes then we shall have to make them ourselves as the developers have other prioritys. Yes they take our input and ideas and implement them where they see fit but I digress from the topic now....

To be ON TOPIC The latest release favors FFA over 1vs1 in regards to the AI but basicly my only advice is to either adjust the sliders in pre-launch to something more balanced or mod the AIPs...

posted on January 17th, 2010, 1:48 am

[

Incidentally, AI is being worked on, and there will be more changes - it just takes time, more coding... and of course, patience.

posted on January 17th, 2010, 1:52 am

AHA!  There you go.  So you don't play online and you armchair this forum and it's members as being online elitists when really you just didn't want to take the time to learn online play.  None of us are severe or unkind.  (thoough on this post I'm totally gonna come across that way).  There are maybe 50 of us who regularly play together and we're all (almost) friends.  This attitude of yours is the only thing stopping you from having fun and letting us teach you online play.

First of all, you take bits of posts and use them to your advantage with the skill of a reporter. Are you by chance a reporter/editor IRL? It wouldnt' surprise me.

You quoted me there and with that statement out of context it makes it sound like I don't play online because I am afraid of losing/have lost before.

When in fact that statement, when not butchered by your editing, is in fact meant to say I don't play online because I prefer the company of my own friends. Or perhaps that's just as far as you read, in which case you need to re-read my post.

And you just proved my point, when anyone comes here and says they only play against the AI they are met with hostility and elitism. You act like we only play against the AI because we would suck online, and we need your tender guidance to become 'proper' fleet ops players.

THAT is the attitude I resent and THAT is why I don't play with you people online.

That's just mean ... We're not randoms.  Then play with your friends and stop judging the people you've never taken the time to play with.

I do play with my friends, offline, as a local LAN game, against the AI. Perhaps you missed that part of my post?

No, you're also insinuating that the changes people who only play AI suggest should be "immune" to us saying "try playing online".

No, I'm saying that "try playing online" is not an end-all be-all argument for every suggestion/complaint/retarded post made on these forums.

This was clearly not directed at you.  Mal is referring to the millions of people who DON'T play online complaining constantly about how the Federation is SOOOOO underpowered omfg why aren't my Galaxies uber-Leet???!!!??!?!!?!  They have a favorite race and want it to be so OP that it makes up for their lack of interest in getting better.

I wasn't sure, as he may have searched out my old posts, in which case I could have been perceived as favoring the klingons or some other race at some point, as I have in the past made some arguments about balance, some of which were misguided or due to inexperience, and I admit that.

I was just covering my bases just in case it WAS directed at me.

It's an RTS, mah boy.  AI's will NEVER be as much fun or as exciting to play against as humans.  NEVER.  They will always cheat, and you will always be unhappy because of it.

I understand that, I'm just saying that the AI has room for improvement, and that using the excuse that the only proper way to play the game is online against other people is just short-sighted.

Likewise, some "observations" are really veiled attacks.  You may not think so, but that's how many are coming across.  Your apparent dislike for this "community" is thinly disguised.

I have seen many potential new members of this community turned away because of the attitude that is displayed by some of your members. I lurk, a LOT, and see this sort of thing take place every few months on these boards. The attitude around here really is very "clique" like, and is not something that is easy to feel welcome in, so that is why I come across hostile to your community as a whole.

It got better.  It builds smarter things to stop you.  Since you are pushing for harder AI ... what's the issue?  Like I will say again:  if you want a more "human AI", try humans.  We come pre-packaged with excellent and sneaky tactics.  

I'm not necessarily pushing for harder AI so much as I am pushing for more "advanced" or "tactical" AI. I know that not everything is possible, but I cannot believe it's only possible to add challenge by making the AI cheat more.

Again this is because the AI can't THINK.  It can only outbuild you and outproduce you.  You, being a human, get to test out your magnificent problem-solving and strategic capabilities to overcome those odds.  To Sto-Vo-Kor!  :badgrin:


Then by all means, design an AI that doesn't cheat.  You'll find it's not as simple as you seem to think it is.

I just think there is room for improvement, and that the AI should not be ignored in the game's development as it is a very important feature to some of us. Just because I'm the only one being vocal about it right now doesn't mean there aren't a hundred more of us out there lurking that just play this game casually against the AI from time to time.

I'm just one of the few that actually reads these forums. I just don't post a lot.

Oh yes I can ...  None of us has ever suggested to play online or get out.  Fact is there are numerous people who get VERY upset over things in the game and request broad changes because they were playing the AI on unlimited resources or just trying to build a "victory fleet" that got killed.  Thus:  we can say "stop boning yourself with your gameplay choices", "tough titties", or "come play with us!"  :thumbsup:

Personally I WANT to say "Tough Titties" ....

Yea, I know you get your fair share of people that have no clue what they're talking about that come in here screaming on their first posts about the feds being underpowered or whatnot. I'm not defending those arguments.

However I have seen cases where legitimate concerns are ignored because the person raising the concern "only plays agains the AI".

An example would be some time ago, I think it was around the release of 3.0.6 or 3.0.5, I came out of my hole and posted a few things on my thoughts about the Klingons being a rather underpowered race.

My arguments were shut down on the assumption that I didn't know what I was talking about because I "did not play online".

Come forward to today, and 3.1.0 has buffed the klingons quite a bit. So was my argument invalid because I did not play online? It would seem it was not, as it was eventually addressed.

That's the sort of thing I'm referring to. Us "offline players" are generally brushed off as not knowing anything without really considering what we have to say. Yes, we play a different game essentially than is played online, but that doesn't mean our opinions should just be dismissed.

Again, "one sidedness" is encouraging you to play online?  The AI is the AI ... of course it could be better it can ALWAYS be better until it's a human.  But until it's as good as a human, you'll have to settle for HUMANS.

One-sidedness is ostracizing anyone that prefers to play offline with friends rather than online against people they don't really know. I'll say again, if the game isn't meant to be played co-op against bots, then remove the bots and just make it clear.

Actually, it's attitudes like yours that's caused many of us to simply say: "come play online with us if you're discouraged playing the AI".  People getting upset about how the balance is vs. the AI and having a fit when they don't play online with us.

Mal does not deserve this attack ...  If you ONLY play against the AI then you ARE less experienced because you haven't experienced 3.1 online gameplay with the other players in the forums.  I am really appalled by your disrespect and immediate assumptions about those of us encouraging you to play online.

I could have worded that better. I probably should have said what I said without mentioning Mal specifically. Because he is not the only person on these forums that acts that way.

I don't understand your aversion to online play.  I do, however see that you have been building up hostility for quite a long time given your offensive/defensive nature that came out of nowhere.  Nobody online will treat you poorly and we will only offer you practice and fun games.  

My offensive/defensive nature has not come out of nowhere, I just decided I wanted to make my standpoint clear to this community and the developers. As I've said previously I lurk and read these forums quite often, and see time and time again where people that prefer playing offline like I do are ignored, ostracized, or put down because they do not play online.

I'm not demanding massive changes to the game, or even demanding the devs fix the AI, I would just like acknowledgement that there is a group of people that play this game co-operatively against the AI opponents, and that the AI opponents need improvement, and that our opinions matter.

I'll just go back to my usual lurking, as I'm sure my point has been made clear. Be a little bit more receptive to people who don't necessarily want to join your little collective. Some of us just prefer to play offline with friends, and we shouldn't be ignored just because that is our preference.

posted on January 17th, 2010, 1:56 am

The people online are very polite its not like playing C.O.D. where you are playing with a bunch of stupid kids. Everyone online is interested in seeing you get better in order for them to have more interesting oppentens. Anyway just try it trust me you will have fun.

posted on January 17th, 2010, 2:00 am

The people online are very polite its not like playing C.O.D. where you are playing with a bunch of stupid kids. Everyone online is interested in seeing you get better in order for them to have more interesting oppentens. Anyway just try it trust me you will have fun.

That may be true, but it isn't the attitude that is presented on these boards. I am not surprised I was met with hostility as I came out of the gate guns blazing myself, but I lurk around here a lot and there is a general attitude of "we are better than you because you play offline, and if you want to enjoy the game you should play online with us".

The second part is fine, the first part is generally between the lines and is what drives people away from this community, as nobody wants to play a game with people who think they're better than you just because they're a part of a little online community.

[Dominus_Noctis]

posted on January 17th, 2010, 2:11 am

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on January 17th, 2010, 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

Actually, I have to admit I did say 'bullcrap' today in a game - but I swear I tried to atone for it after  :sweatdrop:.

And you just proved my point, when anyone comes here and says they only play against the AI they are met with hostility and elitism. You act like we only play against the AI because we would suck online, and we need your tender guidance to become 'proper' fleet ops players.

THAT is the attitude I resent and THAT is why I don't play with you people online.

These sorts of comments really aren't very friendly. Please stop with the stereotyping and the almost name calling. By the way, "you people" statements remind me of a certain scene in Space Balls... NOBODY!!!! Never mind. Can't find the video of it

Remember that almost all the people who play multiplayer against humans used to play against the AI, or in many cases still do. I certainly played 3.0PR more offline than online (hey, I sucked at online gameplay for a few days before getting the hang of it... SPAM MORE SHRIKES!)

I did look up your past comments on the Klingons having problems, but they were very vague in general (saying that the middle game was screwed was about the most specific I could find) and that the Klingons should get the D'tai as a credit based ship. I think if you want people take these comments more seriously, just elaborate. Explain why a ship is useless, or why another vessel is needed. Right now I can say the Romulan early game is screwed, but it helps no one when I say that. That's why Boggz, Mal, and I were being so damned annoying over the past few days with suggestions of what to do with the Rhienn etc . I don't need to tell you how to post of course, I just know that it is much easier to form a good thread if everybody can understand what you mean.  :thumbsup:

Not sure who is disseminating the idea of "we are better than you cuz we play online" - but I can see even in that comment that you are again being belittling. Try to lay off the insults, it makes me (and probably other people) more amenable to your suggestions.

EDIT: did look back and you said the Negh'var was messed up too.

posted on January 17th, 2010, 2:18 am

Yea my old comments were vague and I'd prefer not to discuss them, I only mentioned them to cover myself in case they were brought up. (I'd still love to see the D'tai as a unit... but I understand it doesn't fit into the Fleet Ops storyline )

As for my first comment that you quoted, I take offense to someone that is trying to edit my statements to say something entirely different. So that entire block of text is very hostile for that reason.

As for the rest, as I've said, the hostility has been building for some time and I felt it was time to make my point clear. I believe I've done that, and I'm pretty much done discussing it at this point.

posted on January 17th, 2010, 2:24 am

Why the need to vent them in the first place then? I don't think anybody tries to be hostile on the forums, and I know I don't like to have to log in just to make a conciliatory post because I feel that I or anybody else is being grouped into some "collective elitist club" . If you have anger at once person, direct at them, don't try to bring everybody else into it. Private disputes should remain on the PM's, not the general forum in my opinion  . If you want to see some real "private made public" animosity though, go back a few months, or check out the first few years of this forum.

posted on January 17th, 2010, 2:27 am

I will problably get burned for this but whatever.

In my oppinion the mainly online players do have a "elitist" attitude towards AI players. Well I would use the phrase "polite snob" actually. So this causes the mainly AI players to become defensive. But anyways I am not surprised this thread has turned into a flame war basicly.

Both sides bring up valid points. Both sides are right. Both sides are wrong. If Babylon 5 has taught us anything its that there are 3 sides to any argument. your side, their side, and the truth.

And the truth is....its just a fraking game so chill out.

posted on January 17th, 2010, 2:32 am

im not going to burn you i thought it was rather funny

posted on January 17th, 2010, 2:36 am

I guess I'm in minority as well...

I would give advice, because I almost only play against AI, but I have been too busy to test them to great extent.  I'll give advice when I have had enough time to play a few games.