Well thats no fun!

posted on January 16th, 2010, 8:47 pm

Okay, usually I'm a federation player! Playing against the computer is always relatively easy on Hard and sometimes a challenge depending on the race! However something is wrong when I decide to play against the federation using the Romulans...

Now granted I am new to the Romulan race so I don't expect this to be a walk in the park! However for some reason I seem to be facing both avatars at once from a single computer opponent. Is this a bug? It seems unfair that on hard the computer is able to benefit from both avatars as well as getting extra resource AND extra build time.....

This is supposed to be a medium level.

Maybe my build order is wrong but I just can't seem to win. Ohh I hold them off with my Rhien's and Griffins but can never expend past them and so even with well micromanaged (6 Heroic Rhiens firing while cloaked for the win!!) and elite forces I always end up being smashed in the end!!

posted on January 16th, 2010, 8:50 pm

lol, I had red this feature was added in, but I hadn't realized how devastating it would be.

posted on January 16th, 2010, 8:50 pm

Nope, not a bug. New feature, one I welcome 

posted on January 16th, 2010, 9:00 pm

Well does someone want to give some advice on how to do this. I'm playing on the middle of 3 difficulties and basically being boned sideways..... It's not pleasant. I seem to have the micro management down okay. Just can't keep up with the sheer number of units the computer is producing!

posted on January 16th, 2010, 9:48 pm

Problem with these forums is they'll just tell you to either play against an easier AI, or play against human opponents.

Everyone on these boards assumes that everyone else plays strictly against human opponents, and that playing against the AI is a waste of time, so sadly nobody will do much to post any strategies to beating the cheating AI.

I really wish someone would design an AI that can be a challenge without having to cheat with reduced build costs and access to units a normal player would not have.

However, it's just not going to happen, probably one of the limits of the Armada 2 engine.

That said, I also struggle against the "middle-ground" AI, even using tactics designed to win matches online.

Early rushes don't work against the AI most of the time because they can build turrets and ships faster than you can replace losses. And because they don't use resources they gather, destroying their expansions doesn't help you.

Your only real hope against the AI is to find the spammiest tactic possible and use it to win en-masse.

You can also up their build costs and stuff in the pre-game lobby, but that feels like cheating as well.

Hope that helps. Also,

In b4 "Play against humans, nub"

posted on January 16th, 2010, 9:50 pm

Au contraire, i strictly play the Ai, and only give advice against the Ai

posted on January 16th, 2010, 9:57 pm

Then you're in the minority Proton, as most posts about the AI get met with "Just play against humans".

It's why I don't bother posting about the bad AI anymore, I've accepted it won't be fixed and that the playerbase that prefers co-op games against the AI will just be ignored in favor of the online competitive play.

posted on January 16th, 2010, 9:58 pm

Au contraire, i strictly play the Ai, and only give advice against the Ai

Advice would be helpful. You see I just had a 2 games, 1 federation VS Federation. One with me klingons versus federation. Both of them I won with ease! I'm not lying, the Klingon game was just amusing on the basis of how much fire power the B'rel and K'vort have when you select the Avatar that gives them +2 offence and a micro-photon torpedo!!

Federation because you defend until you can get Mayson Excelsior II's and then just blow the offending opponent to pieces.... Though a dual galaxy warp in did help somewhat

I would play online, but I'm still in the middle of exams so I don't want to be tempted by games that will take up all my time

posted on January 16th, 2010, 10:03 pm

Basic advice against the AI is don't try to rush too much, unless playing against a borg AI (then you need to rush early and stop them before they can mass-produce spheres and cubes).

Instead, dig in, defeat their early assaults, and then once you have a good sized armada just wipe them out systematically.

The AI doesn't fare well against an all-out assault, and once you kill their initial assaults and have defenses to protect you from their harassment fleets, you'll be fine.

The main problem I have with fighting the AI is that it's impossible to do hit and run tactics on THEM with any success, since the time spent micro-managing your hit and run fleet is better spent building additional defenses and working your way up your own tech tree.

Also since the AI cheats and doesn't use resources it gathers you won't be hurting them by killing a mining expansion or two.

The best way actually to hurt the AI is just to kill the ships it sends after you, since it has to replace every ship it loses before it can move up in its own techtree, because that's the way the Armada AI works. It's just a build list sadly, nothing more.

posted on January 16th, 2010, 10:05 pm

I just want to point out that the FO was primarily designed for people to play multiplayer.

posted on January 16th, 2010, 10:06 pm

I just want to point out that the FO was primarily designed for people to play multiplayer.

Is 3 humans against 3 AI not multiplayer? I must have missed something.

posted on January 16th, 2010, 10:07 pm

Killing expansions always hurts my AI enemies and allies, since (according to the game files) they do use resources at a considerable decrease.

posted on January 16th, 2010, 10:09 pm

Killing expansions always hurts my AI enemies and allies, since (according to the game files) they do use resources at a considerable decrease.

The problem is, killing their assault ships as they suicide-run on your base works so much better, since it'll take them much longer to replace those then it will for them to just build 2 more miners and continue with the rest of its build list.

My main complaint is that the AI doesn't actually use any different strategies as it moves up in the "difficulty" scale, It just cheats more, which isn't fun, it's just annoying.

posted on January 16th, 2010, 11:20 pm

DarkDragon, did an online player bite you or something?   You seem to be really defensive about that aspect of the game.

Everyone on these boards assumes that everyone else plays strictly against human opponents, and that playing against the AI is a waste of time, so sadly nobody will do much to post any strategies to beating the cheating AI.

Not really.  We've only mentioned how much fun playing online is, and we want as many people as possible to enjoy it with us.  The other times we've mentioned it is where people pop on the forums, demand tons of changes based on no experience because their precious [insert favorite race] can't nuke their enemy to kingdom come with the press of a button. 

We recently had one guy complain that the Borg were too complicated!   The only thing that's changed is you have to build a few probes and scout cubes now before you build the bigger ships.  Insanely complicated, I know!   But this guy says he's going to quit the game because of it.  So those kinds of people we encourage to come play online so they'll actually know what they're talking about before they go off on a rant.

I really wish someone would design an AI that can be a challenge without having to cheat with reduced build costs and access to units a normal player would not have.

However, it's just not going to happen, probably one of the limits of the Armada 2 engine.

Again, not true.  If you read the forums, you can find posts where Optec and Doca are working on it, but they said it will take a very long time to get things working.  They've done the impossible before, but something like this will probably take a year or two, or even more.  But it's definitely not coming any time soon.

I'm not your enemy, but if you look over your posts, you can see where you present things pretty... one-sided.  I do agree that the value sliders are useful.  You can set them to where you are comfortable at and work your way up.  I don't have a problem with that since the AI cheats.  Also, as someone who plays online AND plays against the AI, I've posted some ways to make the AI simulate something close to a human player.  Usually, if you did 2 medium AIs (it's hard now) of the same race and on the same team, I found that simulates a human player to some degree.  Not in thought, but the ships make up for that.  I have no clue how that will work for you in this patch, as I haven't tried it yet.

Anthony,
You've gotten some general advice, but I can give you specific advice on the romulans.  Usually, I'd just point you to the guide, because what works for online multiplayer works against the AI (surprise surprise ), but that's not the case right now.

First, as helev you need to skip rhienns and go straight for generix refits.  Mainly make generix support refits, and reserach the shield recharge ability.  Once you have about 6-8 of these, get either the frigate or the spectre refit for extra firepower.  In short, once you have enough of these, you'll be able to constantly recharge your ships' shields, keeping yourself alive during the onslaught of the AI.  Understand that you will not have as easy a time as with the Feds, because they have become unbelievably strong (some vessels cost a lot less than they were intended to be).  But this should help you.  Also, make sure you have cloaked scouts across the map so you can see where the spam is coming from.

I'm glad you want to play online with us.  It really is a lot of fun.  Beware, because once you get hooked, you'll start saying things like, "Play against humans, nub", because that's the extent of our vocabulary and writing prowess!  

[DarkDragon452]

posted on January 17th, 2010, 12:43 am

Last edited by DarkDragon452 on January 17th, 2010, 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ok to answer a few of your questions Mal:

DarkDragon, did an online player bite you or something?   You seem to be really defensive about that aspect of the game.

No, I don't choose to play against the AI because I got my butt kicked online, I choose to play against the AI because I don't have any interest in playing with the people that post on these boards, for various reasons. I have friends that I play the game with, but we prefer co-op play to playing against each other, so we need opponents and the AI is the best choice.

Not really.  We've only mentioned how much fun playing online is, and we want as many people as possible to enjoy it with us.

Again, I don't subscribe to your "join us or have no fun" philosophy. If the game is meant to be played solely online, remove the instant action and AI and make that point clear. I used to play Aramda 1 and Armada 2 online, and actually had a lot of fun with Armada 1, but my experience was so tainted by the armada 2 community I am not willing to try it again. And that is only one of the reasons I don't have any interest in playing with "randoms" from these forums. I'd much rather play with my friends, as I stated above.

The other times we've mentioned it is where people pop on the forums, demand tons of changes based on no experience because their precious [insert favorite race] can't nuke their enemy to kingdom come with the press of a button. 

We recently had one guy complain that the Borg were too complicated!   The only thing that's changed is you have to build a few probes and scout cubes now before you build the bigger ships.  Insanely complicated, I know!   But this guy says he's going to quit the game because of it.  So those kinds of people we encourage to come play online so they'll actually know what they're talking about before they go off on a rant.

I don't see what this has to do with my posts at all. I'm not suggesting changes to the game other than improving the AI. I have had comments in the past about balancing, and some were short sighted and were things I later learned were a non-issue after becoming better at the game. Some, were issues that were finally realized by the devs and taken to heart. (See: klingons being worthless until the 3.1.0 patch)

As for race favoritism, I pick random race every time I play. So that argument can never hold water against me.

And as for playing online in order to understand the game before ranting; again, I don't subscribe to the philosophy that this game can only be enjoyed online. And I think the AI needs to be improved so there is not such a discrepancy in strategy between playing agains the AI and playing against humans. Granted it'll never be perfect, but it does need to get better.

Again, not true.  If you read the forums, you can find posts where Optec and Doca are working on it, but they said it will take a very long time to get things working.  They've done the impossible before, but something like this will probably take a year or two, or even more.  But it's definitely not coming any time soon.

You're right, I forgot that I have seen posts mentioning they were working on it. Nonetheless, in the here and now the AI is bad, and the recent changes that gave them further ways to cheat wasn't really a solution, more as making an already annoying opponent even more annoying.

I would have much rather seen them look further into the method that was discussed over in the modding section at one point, about using the different AI pref files to improve the way the AI reacts under different situations, which has been proven to work in some Armada 2 mods, but has not yet been looked into for fleet ops. (except by one guy that just made the dominion spam even more V-13s, which isn't what I'd call an improvement either).

I'm not your enemy, but if you look over your posts, you can see where you present things pretty... one-sided.  I do agree that the value sliders are useful.  You can set them to where you are comfortable at and work your way up.  I don't have a problem with that since the AI cheats.  Also, as someone who plays online AND plays against the AI, I've posted some ways to make the AI simulate something close to a human player.  Usually, if you did 2 medium AIs (it's hard now) of the same race and on the same team, I found that simulates a human player to some degree.  Not in thought, but the ships make up for that.  I have no clue how that will work for you in this patch, as I haven't tried it yet.

Don't get me wrong, I am a very fiery person when I get into discussions and/or arguments. It tends to rattle people that do not know me. Some things I say come off as attacks when they are merely observations.

As for the AI settings, before the patch I was able to pretty reliably beat AI "hard" (previously medium) 1v1 or 2v2 or 3v3 (with other humans on my side in the team games) with no modifications to the difficulty sliders. However, the Merciless AI was just simply, unbeatable, unless you double-teamed it or something, as it cheats way too much.

I still lost some games too, but mostly if I made a mistake or didn't get resources built up fast enough. The same sort of mistakes that'll cost you in an online game.


However, post-3.1.0, I am not sure what changed, but the AI seems to cheat with its resources much more. Previously, attacking their expansions slowed them down somewhat, now, you're lucky if you can even pull off a successful early game attack as the AI will insta-build turrets and other defenses while still affording to build a fleet to harass you early game.

So the only tactic that really works is to dig in and let them come to you so you can knock ships back into their build que, as that's essentially all you are doing to the AI.

Add to that the fact they now get units from both avatars at the same time and they can use some tactics not even human players have access to, like building Phalanxes to attack you while having torpedo turrets to defend. (and that's just one rudimentary example)

I haven't quite found the ideal settings yet, but the only game I have won against the new AI (AI hard, not merciless) was with the AI sliders set to 1.30 or so, which feels like I am cheating quite a bit to beat the cheating AI, which just doesn't strike me as all that fun.

I'm glad you want to play online with us.  It really is a lot of fun.  Beware, because once you get hooked, you'll start saying things like, "Play against humans, nub", because that's the extent of our vocabulary and writing prowess!

The fact is, you can't deny that the general attitude on these forums is play online or get out. I've seen multiple people post about their troubles against an AI, or about the fact the AI is underwhelming, only to be told to play online as they won't have that problem there.

That is an elementary solution, and is why I used such elementary terms to describe the suggestion. For some of us, playing online is not preferable, or may not even be an option.


I'll just state once more the primary reason I don't play online is that I much prefer to be able to just pick up the game and play whenever me and my roommate decide we want to play. We don't want to wait for people we don't know to fill up our lobby, we don't want to deal with silly house rules that always crop up in online strategy games, and we don't want to play competitively in any manner.

The only reason I even bothered posting is I had just gotten done reading at least 2 other topics where people had similar complaints about the AI and the only solution that was posted was "play online". So I wanted to present a different opinion and vent a little bit against the one-sidedness this community tends to display.

EDIT - And to just make an example: Mal, you often insinuate that people that only play against the AI are less "experienced" and therefore their opinions matter less when discussing matters of game balance and etc. This is the sort of attitude that drives people away from your little community rather than makes them want to play online with you.

EDIT2: It seems using quotes has destroyed the forum layout. Trying to remedy this, not sure why it isn't working. Perhaps my novel-post is not agreeing with the forum, will split it up if needed.

Bah, not sure what's wrong, it looks fine in preview and then it messes with the whole page when it gets posted. Must be something this particular board code doesn't like about my use of multiple quote boxes.