S2 Spam

[Alpha Line]

posted on November 28th, 2010, 4:17 pm

Last edited by Alpha Line on November 28th, 2010, 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well, I agree that the S2 spam is quite powerfull, but

a) easily and fast to produce: IMO all small yard Dominion vessels are easily and fast to produce... with the disadvantage that u have to choose one prototype!

b) sturdy: what is sturdy? S2s receive 24% more damage from short range vessels...

c) quick: ok at this point i have to agree, and Funny said a perfect example that no unit can catch a fleeing (and at the same time raiding) S2 fleet! But on the other hand most Dominion vessels (like the S2) are very quick, because some or all weapons fire only in a forward direction...

I would like to see that the speed of the S2 is reduced to 120; with such a speed the S2 would still be a counter unit vs. long range ships, which are (most of the time) slower than 120...
Because all races have a unit that has a speed of 140 I would like to see that Bugs are 140 for the Dominion (But that is off topic and only my opinion...)

posted on November 28th, 2010, 5:57 pm

middle moons benefit dominion players a lot. a common fed double yard strat is to put the second yard at your primary exp, ive been thinking about expanding first to the middle yard in duel 2 with a yard

  Good luck beating the dominion player there. 

posted on November 28th, 2010, 7:38 pm

you also need to take into account that if you just build monsoons and intrepids , your going to fall behind once the dom player makes a large yard and starts putting out t-15s etc.


you can expand much easier while s2 spamming than you can expand while countering s2 spam. the s2s hit critical mass faster (not to mention being cheap) . so while you might hold the off the s2s you'll do it at the expense of not having a strong mid game.

the reality to me is pretty simple as much as the online guide says spamming isn't a nice thing to do online, fleetops is about spamming.

- the borg 'spam' regen spheres because its really the only sphere worth making atm (due to damage reduction on other modules being insignificant)
- feds spam monsoons or intrepids
- klingnons do tend to mix it up due to the nature of their yards
- dom s2s , t-15 sometimes
- roms due imho tend to be less spamy due to the nature of their refit system.


it just so happens that the dominion are pretty much the best at early game spam, but it comes at the cost of it being harder for them to do a mixed fleet early game. maybe in the next patch with passive bonuses for different ships  having a mixed fleet will actually matter and issue will be resolved.

posted on November 28th, 2010, 7:40 pm

@Myles, in my game vs star, no middle moon was used, and i did expand to the second mining with a second yard, as quickly as possible, and i never stopped production at either yard, until he destroyed me much later on, i also got my proximity and warpin really fast, and although the game probably coulda gone either way, star still won

posted on November 28th, 2010, 7:55 pm

the reality to me is pretty simple as much as the online guide says spamming isn't a nice thing to do online, fleetops is about spamming.

I wouldn't say Fleet Ops is any more "about" spamming than any other strategy game.

If a good thing can be abused, it will be. Not to get philisophical, but it's human nature. Short of capping every unit (which still doesn't solve the problem), making every unit suck (which would take FO in the wrong direction) or engaging in endless discussions over what's a "fair" price and what's "OP" and what the developers had in mind when they created that unit, let's just be more respectful players.

My point is, I'm not sure what good there is in getting upset over spam and blaming the game for players that use it. It's a tactic. It's not always successful and it always shows a lack of creativity on the part of those who use it, so do your best to inform devs and players of the issue... but don't blame anyone but yourself for getting upset about it.

[vonCarstein]

posted on November 28th, 2010, 10:28 pm

Last edited by vonCarstein on November 28th, 2010, 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

@Alpha

the disadvantage that I have to choose one prototype... ähm.. yes.. but I get a ship... most races have to build a whole building to get access to a class of ships the feds have to build engineering AND have to research chassis lvl... so that big disadvantage of the prototype.. really isnt one... if you consider that you can build every ship in the small yard right from the start

sturdy: ofc in relation to other ships of that speed because those ships are the only ones that will do you any good

The next thing.. every counter I've heard so far is complicated (for the feds that is.. for the dominion the counter is simple.. counter s2 spam and be better at it). For the feds ppl told me to build a mix of intrepids, monsoons and platforms and get the special... well thats insanly hard to do while your opponent harrasses your mining non stop.. dont you think.. and then I might get handed the short hand of the stick when I play someone roughly the same lvl if i just screw up one time (its not that easy to fully micro 2 fleets of different speeds so your opponent isnt able to piecemeal them).. while I have to do that.. the dominion player only has to do one thing: spam S2s set a waypoint attack miners where there is no turret.. aint there something wrong here?

The S2 spam is too easy to do.. and too effective

edit: also the dominion gets the first S2 a full 50 seconds before the feds get their first monsoon and the std S2 is produced 6 seconds faster.. im sorry but something here is off

posted on November 28th, 2010, 10:39 pm

The prototype system is a disadvantage; in addition to having no rankup or specials, it's quite a bit less durable than a research station. It's also much more expensive than the regular, builds slower than Starfleet Engineering and can be lured away from defenses.

The Dominion recover from the loss of Prototypes slower and is easier to inconvenience.

[vonCarstein]

posted on November 28th, 2010, 10:45 pm

Last edited by vonCarstein on November 28th, 2010, 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

yes.. its a little trouble but it has one big advantage to every building... it fights!
secondly if the s2 prototype gets destroyed when I know I play S2 spam.. Im not really concernd because my small yards will be queued up fully.. which means.. even in the worst case I can build up to 20 S2s if the prototype gets destroyed immediatly.

edit: and as this strat relies on early harrass Its a good deal better to have my first useful ship a full 50 seconds earlier (as i said in my edit of the post before) then my opponent (that is if the opponent is feds).. because his starfleet engineering wont help him when I raid his mining the prototype will

edit2: did anyone actually look at the combat values of that thing. Its a small yard ship that can be produced out of the box (like every other vessel of the dominion) that is fairly cheap, takes 70 seks to build with 25 offense and (one of) the fastest movement speed besides scouts in the game, there is no other ship like this. Am I really the only one thinking something here is of?

posted on November 28th, 2010, 11:53 pm

And Myles, if you mixed monsoons and intreps you would have trouble microing ships at different speeds and get piecemealed.

actually i can micro ships with different speeds fine.

  Good luck beating the dominion player there. 

when did i mention beating them there? i was musing in general about fed putting a middle yard in a similar fashion to the dominion player. the dom player rightly has the advantage in putting a proxy yard up as this is one of their specialties (like romulan superior cloaks etc)

you also need to take into account that if you just build monsoons and intrepids , your going to fall behind once the dom player makes a large yard and starts putting out t-15s etc.

if they just made 2 small yards they are invested in s2 for a while, i doubt they could afford a third yard very soon.

i also got my proximity and warpin really fast, and although the game probably coulda gone either way, star still won

so you built 2 yards, and went for fast warpin? those strats dont work too well together, if u went for two yards u should have made ships from them instead of making sfc quickly.

regardless of whether it is op or not, i would agree with making it do slightly more damage via its torp, to reduce its power vs early game small ships and increase its staying power later.

posted on November 29th, 2010, 12:53 am

I wouldn't say Fleet Ops is any more "about" spamming than any other strategy game.

If a good thing can be abused, it will be. Not to get philisophical, but it's human nature. Short of capping every unit (which still doesn't solve the problem), making every unit suck (which would take FO in the wrong direction) or engaging in endless discussions over what's a "fair" price and what's "OP" and what the developers had in mind when they created that unit, let's just be more respectful players.

actually some units are capped....imagine if b8s didn't an 8 unit cap.

As my post said the passives system the devs have made for the next version should make having a balanced fleet an advantage if they so choose to make passives that important.

posted on November 29th, 2010, 1:15 am

actually some units are capped....imagine if b8s didn't an 8 unit cap.

I didn't say capping some units doesn't solve some problems. I said capping every unit doesn't solve this one.

posted on November 29th, 2010, 2:03 am

Lol, Myles.  You are amazing at backtracking.

  You said the Feds can proxy yard the middle too.  Yes they can, but the PROBLEM is not inherently a proxy yard middle in general, it's that the Dominion can put it there so fast.  Feds cannot proxy yard the middle with the same results that the Dominion can.

   

posted on November 29th, 2010, 2:31 am

@ Myles if you read my post, i said i went for two yards and never stopped production, And then i got proximity and warpin very fast, and yes that does work

posted on November 29th, 2010, 11:22 am

Lol, Myles.  You are amazing at backtracking.

clarify what you mean by backtracking

  You said the Feds can proxy yard the middle too.  Yes they can, but the PROBLEM is not inherently a proxy yard middle in general, it's that the Dominion can put it there so fast.  Feds cannot proxy yard the middle with the same results that the Dominion can.

i said i was considering putting the second fed yard in the middle rather than at the natural exp. indeed feds can proxy yard the middle, but...

if u read my post (which i seriously doubt you have after this post) you will notice i said the dominion are better at it, i said it explicitly.

again this is in general not specifically about s2s any more. the common double yard fed strat is 1 at main 1 at natural exp, i think that going for the middle in duel 2 could be helpful if u can pressure well.

@ Myles if you read my post, i said i went for two yards and never stopped production, And then i got proximity and warpin very fast, and yes that does work

i mistook proxy torp for proxy yard, but my point stands about the strats.

going for both fast warpin and double yard is a bad move, it doesnt work. you should stick to double yard, and build sfc later.

posted on November 30th, 2010, 1:01 am

clarify what you mean by backtracking

No.  Figure it out. 


  If you're talking about yarding the middle in general then fine.  Yes, feds can proxy yard the middle just like anyone else.  That's NOT what we're talking about here and it's NOT a solution to Dominion S2 spam.

  The Dommies WILL get there first .  This is the S2 spam thread.  That's what this is about .  That's what I'm talking about.