Overpowered Units and Abilities in 3.1.1

posted on March 15th, 2010, 2:20 pm

sadly, balancing is not that simple. We already had past versions were teching played a larger role, and were all races were basically the same expect technology options, but that does not lead to better balancing and definitely ruins the fun of having a vivid gameplay.

We are quite happy with the gameplay and balancing of Fleet Operations. A few flaws were found in the last patch and they will be fixed. We don't want to make the races more similar. In fact the next patches will include more features to make the factions even more different from each other.

posted on March 15th, 2010, 3:04 pm

@ Galefury

Don't be under the illusion that just because something is overpowered, the race will be overpowered, or vice versa.


@ Optec

No one is saying that the races should mirror each other, but they should all start equal. Diverse gameplay is not lost by having each race start identically, teching is the way to achieve diversity.

My point was simply that mirror races make balancing easier.


Everyone should consider that there are 5 races, and therefore each race has to be balanced against 4 others. However it's not that simple, throw in the 2 Avatars and there are essentially 10 races that have to be balanced against 9 others.

This makes me think that balance will be unattainable, and by no means do I think it's simple. But I believe it's made impossible by early cloaking and, if I knew how to mod, I'd give up trying to talk you all round, and just show you.

posted on March 15th, 2010, 3:06 pm

I'm with Ray on avoiding jumping the gun at "Overpowered Units and Abilities".

Strategy balance is a strange thing and is actually all about margins of error, strategies considered overpowered are the hardest to screw up, while often not being the most powerful when executed properly or perfectly.

Good players often play these low-fat strategies so it's understandable that they have the views they do. But the unfortunate fact is that sometimes strategies become too safe or too easy to do, as Mayson appears to have.


Inherently, though, balance is always going to be suspect when 2 of the 5 starting races have a huge advantage through cloaking. Knowledge is power in RTS games and cross-balancing a game is incredibly difficult when the factions/races don't mirror each other.

Overpowered units and abilities generally spring up in response to something which is already broken, you'll continually get issues until you fix the source which, in this case, I think is the cloak ability of the Klingons especially, and the Romulans when not underpowered.


I also agree that the races could end up losing their edge, but this is down to the fact that teching in FleetOps has little value due to blobbing/zerging/spamming - whatever you want to call it.

Because the tech tree is limited due to poor balance, balance issues appear more of an issue. Units don't have impact, currently it's a case of steadily upgrading your fleet with better ships which virtually destroys the ability to vary play (booming tech over rushing, for example) and makes the most aggressive player, with the most attacking race, the winner unless operating under the band-aid rules which had to be invented to take the game away from Destroyer spamming, which has always been too effective.

It also creates a vicious slippery slope which makes it almost impossible to recover from a defeat earlier in the game, whoever wins the first major engagement wins the match.




I agree there are serious issues, but don't agree with fixing symptoms of the issue. Fix the races before you try to fix the units, otherwise balance is used to fix imbalance, and your "Overpowered Units and Abilities" are born.

Feel free to disagree, I'd like to hear varied opinions.. but I think the problem sits with cloaking at the moment.

+1

No, not a fanboy. Don't worry.


Cloaking breeds imbalance because of what it forces. Klingon and Romulan players can send scouts directly to an opposing base, allowing them to see what is being constructed and also allowing them to see where opposing, non-cloakable forces are. This allows them to tech to the ideal counter, or be prepared for what they know is coming. Seeing as knowledge is power, it's a massive advantage to have and almost guarantees victory on a strategic level (if possible).

Furthermore it allows harassment (rushing) of moons and exposed structures, as enemy fleets can be followed around to track them and a largely unstoppable hit and run game-style can take place.


Because cloaking is available from the start, it dictates play from the start. Non-cloaking race tech has to lean in the direction of cloak detection, limiting strategic options as valuable resources have to be sunk into countering a FREE ability. This gives the Klingons and Romulans a greater on-field (or in-space, if you like) presence.


Once this occurs, and it already has, units are buffed here and nerfed there in order to try and right the initial imbalance cloaking brings.


Balance is unfortunately far from simple, changes in the early game have a cascading effect which dictates right until the end (in the same way that the earliest battles are the most important and defining).

The Federation are overpowered, but because of cloaking. The same way that, ironically, the Romulans are underpowered because of cloaking.


Cloaking isn't overpowered, but free cloaking is a broken mechanic and, so early in the game, it's fatal. Because everything that comes afterwards has to be balanced against cloak or something that cloak causes.

Solution? Make cloak researchable for the Klingons and Romulans, so it becomes a teching option, rather than an inherent ability. If the races start equal, it's easier to keep them that way.

very, very well said.

EDIT: and i was of course ninjad

posted on March 15th, 2010, 4:08 pm

you joking, they are waaay under powered.

I want a sovvie that can solo a borg cube 

AWW dammit!!  You stole Ray's line!! :-p 

posted on March 15th, 2010, 4:36 pm

Well Klith don't get me wrong:  you're VERY well-spoken and very moderate in your tone.  For this I get down on my knees and THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK .


  On the other hand ... balance is CRUCIAL to replayability. 

@ Galefury

Don't be under the illusion that just because something is overpowered, the race will be overpowered, or vice versa.

But that's not an illusion.  Sure, a single overpowered unit doesn't make race overpowered.  The Leahval is a perfect example.  It DOMINATES the early and middle game, but does not prevent the Romulans overall from being severely weak.

Mayson, on the other hand, has been too powerful for a number of patches.  There is one culprit for that in my opinion and that's Mayson's decreased building time on stations.  Optec has said though that the Feds are getting a major redo so I've more or less shut up about Mayson.  Every once in a while though I bring it up because people don't seem to think he's OP.

@ Optec

No one is saying that the races should mirror each other, but they should all start equal. Diverse gameplay is not lost by having each race start identically, teching is the way to achieve diversity.

My point was simply that mirror races make balancing easier.

Of course mirror races are easier to balance.  No one in their right mind will dispute that .  Vanilla A1 or A2 was much more "balanced" in the sense that everything is the same.  You also know EXACTLY what throws balance when the only real differences are special abilities.  They were also BORING.

At the moment they DO all start equal.  2 Builders, a scout, and a Starbase .  Only Borg start differently but I would certainly not say they have any discernible (dis)advantage.

posted on March 15th, 2010, 10:08 pm

No, they don't start equal.

The Klingons and Romulans can scout opposing bases in-depth from the very start without building anything, or researching anything.


The advantage of knowing what your opponent is doing is priceless.

posted on March 15th, 2010, 10:26 pm

you know, you can use the "normal" scouts , too
every scout has its own advantage that makes them all useful;

the klingon scout may be able to cloak; but for that it has an awful small sensor range
the romulan has a good sensor range and cloak, but that simply fits the romulan way
the fed one has the biggest sensor range of all, also the sensor upgrades are pretty cheap, so it has a reaaally long range and can scout easily
The borg one simply has good stats and the ability to drop sensor stations

and the Dominion one... well, i dont play dominion ofen, so i dont really know about them


also; for scouting the enemy in the beginning of the game, as you described, you can use every scout easily, you just have to micro the non-cloaking ones more.

posted on March 15th, 2010, 10:33 pm

also; for scouting the enemy in the beginning of the game, as you described, you can use every scout easily, you just have to micro the non-cloaking ones more.

Or better yet: Whenever possible hide them in a fluid nebula and set them on green alert.

posted on March 15th, 2010, 10:34 pm

To add on ... Borg one can harass extremely effectively, Dominion one is the only one that isn't that special, but it is run of the mill and has a decent sensor radius.

And while we're at it, why not start complaining about the differences in constructors  :rolleyes: . Mediterranean is the fastest, Assembler is the strongest, Chor can defend itself a bit, Worker Ship can switch from miner to constructor for fast rebuilds (although it is the weakest constructor, it is technically one of the best miners), Mogai is run of the mill.

Oh, and incidentally, Klingon cloak is not at all a reason why they are so darn powerful right now. In fact, many people don't even use cloak when playing Klingons because they don't need to.

posted on March 15th, 2010, 10:37 pm

And while we're at it, why not start complaining about the differences in constructors  :rolleyes: . Mediterranean is the fastest, Assembler is the strongest, Chor can defend itself a bit, Worker Ship can switch from miner to constructor for fast rebuilds (although it is the weakest constructor, it is technically one of the best miners), Mogai is run of the mill.

Hm... adding a cloaking device to the Mogai with a small research cost at the staryard or starbase wouldn't hurt in my view

posted on March 15th, 2010, 10:45 pm

The potential unbalance complaints might, though.

posted on March 15th, 2010, 10:48 pm

The advantage of knowing what your opponent is doing is priceless.

in FO? not so much. u can proceed with regular BO regardless of what ur opponent is doing. cloaked scouts r pretty nice for following fleets though.

posted on March 15th, 2010, 11:00 pm

in FO? not so much. u can proceed with regular BO regardless of what ur opponent is doing. cloaked scouts r pretty nice for following fleets though.

Tell that to the passives . Spam aside, there are no "regular builds" except for the very first few steps. If your opponent builds Sabers, you should build B'rels (especially in the next patch). However, if your opponent builds Bugs, build K'vorts. If your opponent builds Frigate Refits, you should build K'beajQ.... and so on.

If your opponent sends Warp-In, better damn hope you have Regeneration Scubes and not Interception Scubes 

Cloaked scouts allow less micromanagement, but uncloaked scouts can do quite a good job of telling you where fleets are and where fleet movement is. I've seen waaaay too many games where my allies will say "big deal, it's just a scout. Why are you complaining that it was killed?". Oh, and right after they wonder why the heck I'm getting irritated when they have a fleet on their doorstep that they never even saw 

posted on March 15th, 2010, 11:08 pm

If your opponent builds Sabers, you should build B'rels (especially in the next patch). However, if your opponent builds Bugs, build K'vorts. If your opponent builds Frigate Refits, you should build K'beajQ.... and so on.

If your opponent sends Warp-In, better damn hope you have Regeneration Scubes and not Interception Scubes 

it sounds a bit like counters. this blasphemy cannot go unanswered. burn the heretic

Cloaked scouts allow less micromanagement, but uncloaked scouts can do quite a good job of telling you where fleets are and where fleet movement is. I've seen waaaay too many games where my allies will say "big deal, it's just a scout. Why are you complaining that it was killed?". Oh, and right after they wonder why the heck I'm getting irritated when they have a fleet on their doorstep that they never even saw 

that cant be a dig at me. iirc i kept my detector alive choosing to lose spheres instead

posted on March 15th, 2010, 11:17 pm

Nooooes, ye musn't use the C word - and what about going straight to Warbird Yard, or Research Institute, or Tal'Shiar Academy ... or going from Field Yard to Battle Yard without expanding the Field Yard - can't have... differential teching!  . I forgot, Fleet Ops is soooo static. There are no alternate builds possible, no scouting, no countering, and I might as well completely forget about fast teching to get those uber passives out early 

that cant be a dig at me. iirc i kept my detector alive choosing to lose spheres instead

Yeah, building the same modules each time as I recall, regardless of situation  .

Almost forgot... and I know this was mentioned waaay long ago in this thread... but destroyer wars? Who the heck uses destroyers right now? It's all about the cruisers