Less used Klingon Battle Yard vessel?

posted on December 15th, 2009, 4:44 am

Not to mention that 'sang are one of our best Rhienn Disruptor Refit counters, and they also find warpins delicious. 'Sang are really helping to keep Klingon competitive right now, I think. And the fact that Taq's 'sang are even more powerful than the Martok ones...

posted on December 15th, 2009, 4:58 am

Ooh ... if you ask me the Sang's are not good counters to Rhienn's.  Rhienn's are destroyers and get a 40% dodge chance to the Sang's torpedoes.  The Rhienn's on the other hand only lose 20% damage from their pulse's and no damage from their beams.

  Sang's are a better counter to Warp-ins for sure, and also to anything Cruiser or Higher, but the Sang's are more expensive, slower to build, and won't hit them as often.

posted on December 15th, 2009, 3:48 pm

Yes, Sang' are quite terrible counters for Rhienns.

Incidentally Boggz, the Sang' takes 100% of damage from pulses, not 80%, as it is a small vessel (cruiser designation only means that it will take increased damage from the Predatory Strikes ability from Torp Rhienns  ). B'rel spam is really the only proven and effective way to go against Rhienns and Shrikes. If you outnumber and outrun your opponent, you already have a leg up.

posted on December 15th, 2009, 5:24 pm

Oh really?  I was under the impression that the size of the vessel dictated avoidance while the class dictated damage reduction.


Thus:
A Medium Battleship (Defiant) would have 40% Pulse Reduction and 20% Torpedo Avoidance.
While a Small Cruiser (Sang) would have 20% Pulse Reduction and 20% Torpedo Avoidance.

  Have I been misinformed this whole time?

posted on December 15th, 2009, 5:28 pm

Yes you have unfortunately

Size dictates torpedo and pulse avoidance except in special cases seen in the tooltips. Class (cruiser etc) is used on special tooltips a lot to indicate damage amount. For instance, torpedo does 2/3 against battleships. It doesn't matter the size of the vessel, the torp will always do 2/3 damage. So against a Generix Dread, the Breen torp will miss 20% of the time (medium sized) and deal 2/3 damage. Pulses will do 80% damage against the vessel. 

posted on December 15th, 2009, 5:48 pm

So then the term "Battleship" is really only relevant in cases where weapons and abilities specifically reference a class (such as the Breen torpedoes)?


  All this time I had been under the assumption (you might re-check the guide on those vessels like the Defiant that have unusual combinations of size and class) that class dictated reduction while size dictated avoidance.

  To be honest .... I think it would be better that way too ... That way a medium battleship wouldn't be struck by every torpedo.

[Dominus_Noctis]

posted on December 15th, 2009, 5:53 pm

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on December 15th, 2009, 6:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

So then the term "Battleship" is really only relevant in cases where weapons and abilities specifically reference a class (such as the Breen torpedoes)?

That is correct

All this time I had been under the assumption (you might re-check the guide on those vessels like the Defiant that have unusual combinations of size and class) that class dictated reduction while size dictated avoidance.

I have checked them all now - took me a few months, but I believe that all of them should be absolutely correct now (in the online guide, not in the pdf  )

To be honest .... I think it would be better that way too ... That way a medium battleship wouldn't be struck by every torpedo.

I think you have misunderstood again - a medium battleship is not struck every time with a torpedo because the medium size dictates it is only struck 80% of the time . Size usually only determines hit chance (an exception would be weapons which deal more damage to small units etc), class of vessel usually is for special features (it will say specifically damages "support, cruiser, battleship, scout, station" etc.

EDIT: I admit it can be confusing, but the two category system allows the vessels great flexibility in what weapons can do to them. Just have to remember the absolute basics that size is really what matters . Also, it's in the guide under "basics" in "unit system" if you get confused, and I truly hope that it is completely accurate now 

posted on December 15th, 2009, 6:09 pm

Just have to remember the absolute basics that size is really what matters . Also, it's in the guide under "basics" in "unit system" if you get confused, and I truly hope that it is completely accurate now 

  Lol so they say  .

Aye ... I'm completely in the understanding here ...

What I meant by it should be the other way is that ...well nvm.  It doesn't matter.  I've got it.  Size matters.  Class doesn't until a weapon or vessel specifically dictates a different effect based on class.  Boom.

  Lol and who says I read your guide? 

posted on December 15th, 2009, 6:38 pm

Lol and who says I read your guide?  

Who says you don't?

posted on December 16th, 2009, 9:48 pm

I have found 'sang to be vital against Rhienn disruptor refits- although I have not tried simply massing B'rels, I find that any other ship is outranged by the quick rhienns and they can simply disengage without taking losses. The 'sang, on the other hand, has the range and a great special for dealing with Rhienn.

I know it has the worst possible damage type combination against rhienn- but it is also tough enough to endure the multi-target disruptor okay (whereas B'rels will simply feed the Disruptor refits experience)

What kind of micro should go along with using B'rels against this sort of Rhienn raid? (Again, it's only the disruptor refits doing the mass disruptor-kaleh splash) Do I just chase them the second I see them and ping them as much as I can?

posted on December 16th, 2009, 10:03 pm

Well to be honest there is logic to your point regarding B'rels vs. Disruptor Rhienns.


VERY early, especially if you are the Taq'Roja avatar, you have the ability to outproduce the Rhienns 2 sometimes 3 to 1.  It may take 5 minutes but with steady supplies you can field FAR more than they can.  Farther into the game though, when it becomes relatively impractical to field so many B'rels (as you will want to make stronger vessels to augment them), you're right when you say that once enough Rhienn's are completed the opening shots can severely remove a chunk of your  firepower by losing a number of them immediately.

  This is exacerbated in two ways:  1 is that the more Rhienns are out the fast you will lose your B'rels.  2 is that once the Talon refits are out and about your B'rels will lose the ability to close the distance gap in order to engage.  If you cannot cloak then you cannot sneak up.

  That is a serious problem, no doubt.  The Multi-target distruptors and the Kaleh maneuver can deal a crippling blow very fast.  To counteract this you basically just need to know where you opponents forces are at all times so that you can avoid being surprised and crippled.  Using uncloaked scouts to sweep the area with tachyon scans can flush out Talons and warn you of any Rhienns in the area.  Other than that ... Speed speed speed with the Klingons!  Don't lose your B'rels whenever you can avoid it and never ever let those Rhienns run off.  Keep your tach scan locked on Team 0 and force the Rhienn's to turn and half their firepower .

posted on December 16th, 2009, 10:15 pm

To play Klingons (either avatar) successfully against the Romulans you need to be extremely aggressive in general. Consequently, you should absolutely never wait to engage Rhienns. At most your Romulan opponent should have 4-5 Rhienns total before you engage - and by that time you will have between 10-13 B'rels. Also, that number of Rhienns pretty much means Multi Target hasn't been purchased yet. Always click ahead of the Rhienns and peel off damaged units before they can be disintegrated (aka, just before they lose shields usually). As long as you win that first engagement and keep the pressure up on freighters, for instance, it will be very difficult for the Rommie to win.

posted on December 16th, 2009, 11:29 pm

Yep!

  But you are right in some ways, Darkhorse: Klingons don't have a really good counter to Rhienns if the Rhienns manage to field large numbers.  Your best bet (if your aggressiveness did not pay off well and you're forced into something else), is to go with the longer ranged beam vessels like KbeajQ and Vorcha. 

  They are more expensive, for sure, but can hold up considerably better to that first horrendous assault.  The KbeajQ's (Either avatar) also have a direct damage special weapon that will almost always destroy Rhienn's if a couple are used at once.  This can easily let you whittle away the expensive Rhienn's while the KbeajQ's stronger hull makes repairs possible.  The Vorcha's are also excellent tanks that field a heavy beam weapon to nail those little suckers .

  That of course is only IF you've been denied an early win and are forced into playing less efficiently.  If you've chosen the Martok Avatar as well, the Luspet's Field of Fire can be used in large numbers to an excellent degree against destroyers.

posted on December 16th, 2009, 11:34 pm

Just be warned that the K'beajQ currently has a hard time getting in range and staying there, not to mention still taking an enormous amount of damage as it also is a small destroyer

posted on December 16th, 2009, 11:42 pm

On paper you're right, but in practice I find the options limited and it performs well.

If the Rhienn fleet is large enough to warrant a cease in B'rels, they are unlikely to always remain out of range in practical controlling.  Also, a single KbeajQ can absorb always the first and sometimes the second volley from the Rhienn's while B'rels will not.  Still yet, the KbeajQ can easily make good the losses by quickly dishing out the damage with the special while the B'rel cannot.

  Do you have a different strategy should the B'rel rush fail?