Klingons - Cannon Fodder ???

posted on July 23rd, 2009, 7:21 pm

=B!G=-The Black Baron  - thax for the advice, but you see the problem for me is if i dont harass the enemy and concentrate on defence, or trie to build K'beajQ fleet, while harassing the enemy my economy is dvindeling at best, my hands are full, and if the opponent manages to take out my mining, well then as whit all other races the game is pretty much lost. So i dont get any later ships, i only have the initial 4 ships B'rel, K'beajQ,K'Vort and SuS'a or Veqlaragh + K't'inga to face the enemy.
Also the K'Vort and SuS'a or Veqlaragh still require an additional 400 dilithium 200 tritanium before one can build them.

I know if you find a good strategy you dont want all the players to know it, this is why i agree that Dominuse guide is to detailed, but dont forget it's one thing to read an a totaly different to impliment it. It is a guide and not a how to play book.
Most of the strategies there alos have counters, thats what makes the game balanced.
But whit klingons i'm just sending my warriors to Sto'Vo'Kor. Thats ok for a klingon, but if all of them go there whom will sing songs, remember there deeds ? The Federation ? The Romulan star empire ? The Dominion ?  :(

posted on July 23rd, 2009, 7:37 pm

Yeah, I'm not too worried about giving detailed information within the guides.  I still read posts where people say "You need to build a lot of turrets in multiplayer" or "you need to build scout cubes all day long, that'll strike fear into the hearts of your enemies!"   I guess some of us need to start playing klingon more.  I don't know why they aren't played as often; they really have some nice ships.  And if you ever were able to make some Bortas' or a MoQbara station in time, it would be all over for your enemies.   

posted on July 23rd, 2009, 7:45 pm

Simply because klingons are powerful, but most diffikult to play. 

posted on July 23rd, 2009, 8:15 pm

  I suggest tougher hull for klingons. While they don't have the best shields, they should have the thougest hulls except borg. Their ships shoud take a beating even long after shields are gone, partially solving the cloaking problem.

posted on July 23rd, 2009, 8:40 pm

I think klingons should have tougher hulls, better life support systems, but slightly weaker shields and a much greater chance on tops missing, cause klingon ships have always been very maneuverable for their size

posted on July 23rd, 2009, 8:47 pm

I'll get to you later Baron (Tongue ), but I will just say that medium range and slower K'beajQ are mostly just cannon fodder against open field forces of Dominion, Federation, and Romulans at the moment. Rhienns can engage at range, Dominion Bugs ram and take out 450 some odd dilithium, and Federation engage at range. Against Borg they are more useful though.

And the short ranged glass ships are better in your opinion? The defence of 19 for K'beajQ is very high, not to mention it packs a punch too. Add to that the increased system survivability and I really do not see how this ship is cannon fodder.
The way you just replied to me is quite easy to do. Bugs and the C11 are basically a counter for everything atm, Rhienns are very good (but dont forget that they arent cheap either and you are bound to have more ships than the opposition has Rhienns, thus you can actually use some strategy and maybe attack from behind or something, its not that hard actually) and with the feds you have warpin and range for everything early game any other race can possibly field. The fact of the matter is that, while everything you listed is true, its not nearly as easy to pull something off as is writing it in here.   Of course there are ways in which this ship can be pwned, but IMHO its much easier to retreat from the battle (with cloak), if things are getting ugly, with this ship than with B'Rels or K'Vorts and this ship has a lot longer appeal in games.
As I said, I know its costly, but from my experiance the cost is usually worth it. I played a game some time ago, when 2 guys rushed me (Rom and Fed) and I fucked them up with these ships, 2 waves even. While they werent the very best players, they were still decent and I held my own comfortably. And how many top players are you likely to encounter in MP matches anyways?
So Dom, while you may use your über micro skill and own these ships fairly quickly (and I doubt its as easy as you wrote), most of the players out there wont be able to, thus making this a perfectly viable strategy IMO.  :P
Id also like to add that I mentioned this ship because in the OP only B'Rels were mentioned, thus maybe offering an alternative to the flying balls of glass.
Now I dont really feel like arguing this point to the death either, so let me make this perferctly clear: This is my opinion on the matter, try it in games if you wish, it is up to you after all.

=B!G=-The Black Baron  - thax for the advice, but you see the problem for me is if i dont harass the enemy and concentrate on defence, or trie to build K'beajQ fleet, while harassing the enemy my economy is dvindeling at best, my hands are full, and if the opponent manages to take out my mining, well then as whit all other races the game is pretty much lost. So i dont get any later ships, i only have the initial 4 ships B'rel, K'beajQ,K'Vort and SuS'a or Veqlaragh + K't'inga to face the enemy.
Also the K'Vort and SuS'a or Veqlaragh still require an additional 400 dilithium 200 tritanium before one can build them.

How do you handle it with other races then? It is basically the same as with Klingons, you build up a small fleet send ti to where ever you are going to attack and in the meantime tend to your economy. Its not that hard really
I think you just need to figure out what works best for you. But in a nutshell, you need to tend to your economy and be annoying at the same time As with every other race in FO.


About the guides: Let me explain my stance on them, so there wont be any confusion Im not worried about giving away my strategy so others will use it, not at all. The only problem with that is though, that I make it up every time I play a new game, I just try new things every time and see if I can improve somehow. So while the basic "core" strategy stays the same, all the details vary a lot with me.
For me, strategy is knowing what your ships can do, what ships the opponent has and how they are positioned and acting accordingly. Its all about taking risks and whoever is best at reading the game will win.
So herein comes my problem with too detailed strategy guides. While I know for a fact that Doms intentiones are good and that he wants the gameplay to improve in MP matches, the people who read the buildlist he specified will follow that as if that is the bible. The result is that everyone on the net who read that guide willl actually play the same, just like the AI. I know Im generalising, but in the few matches I played online, every fed player used the same strategy (b4 and after Norways were nerfed) same with Roms. Where is the fun in that then?
As always there are exceptions, but IMO the guide's consequence is that people just arent thinking enough during games and then they become angry if they loose, since their strategy was "perfect".

Again this is only a personal opinion, I dont mean to insult anyone but from my experiance this is usually the outcome.

posted on July 23rd, 2009, 9:16 pm

Yeah, I haven't found the medium range of the KbeajQ to be bad at all.  And it is a very cost effective ship.  It costs more than a brel, but they're actually very close when you compare them to their dilithium cost per minute.  For example, if you were to spam b'rels, you will be spending about 264 dilithium per minute.  If you spam K'beajQs, it's 289 per minute.  So not much difference, and you are getting a much better ship.  And with a race that can have multiple cheap yards, I don't mind if it takes longer to build something, when I can have 4 pop out at once. 

Sangs are the same way for me.  It seems everyone focuses on the Vorcha, when the Sang can be spammed, is good against cruisers and great against battleships (and great against destroyers once they get to officer level).  Not to mention that their vetern ability is second to few.  It's a ship that can be microed well because it's fast, and outperforms the Vorcha in every way, in my opinion.  I guess I'm saying I'm not too worried about the Klingons.  This post has made me want to focus on them again, as I've been playing Dominion and Borg a lot lately.

posted on July 23rd, 2009, 9:44 pm

Yeah the Sang can be very powerful, especially since a lot of opponents will simply overlook it and focus on other ships as the ship itself is so small and so are its torpedoes.
If left unapposed it can cause havoc against any ship class.
Vorcha is IMO a Klingon main ship in mid and late game and Sangs is more a long range support ship, well thats how I use them anyway Though focusing only on the Vorcha is not recommended hehe

BTW is it just me or is the Vupta the most useless ship of any race? The thing is incredably slow and its not particulary strong either. While it has an interesting ability and can become a troop ship, as things stand I dont ever build it.

posted on July 23rd, 2009, 10:18 pm

Hey!  The Vupta is awesome! >:(  It has...it has....wtf does it have again?   I guess I don't use them either.   Actually, they weren't bad in 3.0.5a because they were very cheap, but with the increased costs to 360 degree firing ships, they now patrol the lowly backwaters of the Klingon Empire, never to see battle again...

Yeah, I guess what I've never gotten is why the Vorcha is so expensive.  It costs the same as a Negh'var or a Luspet, and has stats closer to that of a heavy cruiser.  I guess that's part of why I never use them.  They're certainly a classic ship, so I might build one or two for the nostalgia value.

Another ship I never use is the Chonaq, the one from the Imperial Yard.  Even with Martok's +6 to defense, I've never been impressed with it.

posted on July 23rd, 2009, 10:30 pm

The klingons are not cannon fodder per se.

However, the primary problem with them in game is a combined effect of redundant research station construction to unlock various classes, the close range coupled with weak shields that are not compensated for sufficiently in firepower augmentation, and certain station and ship build costs that do not quite fit the role the ship will play.

Let us take for example the Martok. This ship costs about 280 dil approx 100 tri, with stats that get us 15 offense 13 defense low systems and nothing else.
Compare that to a rhienn who has high systems and adn increased range, or a fed with increased range and durability, or dominion costs and ship time, or borg firepower and hull strength.
Certainly the klings are at a disadvantage.

the primary issue I see here, is a klingon ship has to get in close to fire. While this is possible using cloaking tech, it is not sustainable as ships can pretty easily move away from kling ships if the kling decloaks and attacks at close range.
Couple that with the fact that when a klingon himself is attacjed by roms or feds, the attacker need not come in close, the attacker gets in many shots from afar before the kling's increased firepower can be of use. Couple that with his weak shields and he is toast.

dominion ships love close range encounters as bug rams are very effective at that range with little time for the klings to take out the dom ship before it rams.


Borg Scubes are short range ships with antidestroyer tech they can ravage the bops. Assims can strip crew easily.

If we look at the typical kling tactics, they have pretty fast ships taht really can hit and run like martok did in DS9 when he had Kor on board.
They are also fast enough to chase and intercept other enemy ships to destroy them.

The first augment would therefore to make the smaller Kling ships like Bops and Kbeajqs quicker and more manoeuvrable.
The second I would see is to have ships like the support ships packing more impressive weapons. A good model could be the game Klingon Academy. The game had pretty impressive Klingon weapons such as gravitational tractors that tear at the hull or super lasers and special torps etc.
The third would be to reduce the cost of weapon upgrades, while increasing the cost of shield upgrades.
Remove the speed upgrade as it is rather wasteful later in game, and is typically less focused on than weapon and shield upgrades for the klings.
instead of speed, we can incorporate system upgrades that revamp new kling ships to have higher system stats and performance.

With these few initial alterations, the klings could still be on the road to recovery and retain the klingon style that the mods have come to call standard.

posted on July 23rd, 2009, 10:38 pm

What about a certain warsong/hymn that can be active at a time? Three to choose from: The Hymn of the Cunning Warrior (which increases speed and reduces recloak time)? The Saga of Kahless (which increases defensive value and system value) and The Quest for Stovo'kor (which increases Off value and rate of fire) even further.

(Think of the background sound of Klingon opera when playing! Would all alone worthwhile)

[tom]

posted on July 23rd, 2009, 11:41 pm

Last edited by tom on July 23rd, 2009, 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BTW is it just me or is the Vupta the most useless ship of any race? The thing is incredably slow and its not particulary strong either. While it has an interesting ability and can become a troop ship, as things stand I dont ever build it.

correct me if i'm wrong but Vupta has 45% damage reduction from torpedoes and off something like 34 when vorcha has 38. on top of this it's cheap (comparing to vorcha). u really dont find that useful?

i find it ... hmm ... interesting that u speak so highly of KbeajQ. the ship costs more then k'vort and has the same speed (100). imo its a flying junk not really useful for anything . i mean against which race do u use it?

Remove the speed upgrade as it is rather wasteful later in game, and is typically less focused on than weapon and shield upgrades for the klings.

imho this sounds like a bad idea. it would ruin my gameplay

posted on July 24th, 2009, 1:34 am

Forgive me if i sound like i'm barging in but i'd like to toss in my 2 cents on the worth of various klingon vessels:
B'Rel - eh, cheap but not very powerful and not all that useful to me...
K'Vort - good power destroyer with one of the best sp weapons for the klingons
K'BeajQ - overrated in my opinion due to the lack of power for the massive amount of money you're spending
Susa  - Meh. nice and has an interesting sp ability but 2 torpedoes which makes it really good only for late game.
Veqlaragh - a long range torpedo platform good for bombarding bbs or stations.
Chargh - also overrated in my opinion due to the fact that you get similar power out of a k'vort for cheaper.
Sang - blah... it has a single tiny torpedo which is good against battleships i guess but i never really used it...
Vorcha - this vessel is good because it has a disruptor and a high offensive value. This means that it always hits its target and deals more or less equal damage to all races. It also has the polaron torpedo which can cripple enemy ships or stations for a time.
Luspet - this is a nice ship because of it's torpedo and it's all around power. I've heard its special weapon is good but haven't seen it in action.
Vutpa - never used it much...
Chonaq - i like this vessel because it can do well at eroding shields and dealing damage to any target, and it's constant beams look pretty cool!
Neghvar - also ok, but it's slow with weak shields and it's power is mainly in the torpedo. Not really worth your time (even if the SP weapon can deal massive damage)
Bortas - this is a good vessel, would be even better if it's attack probe ability worked properly.

posted on July 24th, 2009, 5:00 am

Quote from: -=B!G=-The Black Baron on July 23, 2009, 10:44:05 PM
BTW is it just me or is the Vupta the most useless ship of any race? The thing is incredably slow and its not particulary strong either. While it has an interesting ability and can become a troop ship, as things stand I dont ever build it.
correct me if i'm wrong but Vupta has 45% damage reduction from torpedoes and off something like 34 when vorcha has 38. on top of this it's cheap (comparing to vorcha). u really dont find that useful?

i find it ... hmm ... interesting that u speak so highly of KbeajQ. the ship costs more then k'vort and has the same speed (100). imo its a flying junk not really useful for anything . i mean against which race do u use it?

The Vupta is IMO an anti-destroyer. Why I dont find is useful is because of its weapons and speed, maybe that has been changed lately but if I remember correctly its very very slow. I said in my previous post that it has an interesting ability (the torp dodging), but regardless I just dont ever build it.
How many other people did u see using it in MP matches?

If you had read my previous post u'd already know why I speak highly of the KbeajQ. But in a nutshell, medium range, disruptor, increased survivability <---- when compared to K'Vort and B'Rel. The fact that it has a disruptor for its primary weapon also means that it deals fairly well against cruisers and battleships as well.

But anyway mate, as I've already mentioned in my previous post, I do not want to argue this to death (I just remember I had a similar discussion with some people about this ship a while ago). So this is my opinion on the matter, accept it if you want. 

Just out of curiousity, what race do u usually play as?

posted on July 24th, 2009, 10:43 am

I guess a speed boost when entering combat would be very beneficial to them, it would alow you to quickly get to your target and hit it.

very good idea

I suggest tougher hull for klingons. While they don't have the best shields, they should have the thougest hulls except borg. Their ships shoud take a beating even long after shields are gone, partially solving the cloaking problem.

also a very good idea