Klingons - Cannon Fodder ???
posted on July 23rd, 2009, 5:14 pm
This will be my first real post at the forum, considering gameplay.
I was, and still am not sure if i should post it, but its seem no other player will so i will.
Firts of all this is not to be critical, or cinical, even if my tone implies it, so here goes:
Since i played online (305) i always had a bad feeling playing klingons ( Martok is my favorite - even if the image is flipped ), and i noticed that they lack propper counters to defeat other races, special abilities, build / ship / resource ratio like the other races.
Now i know there is no perfect race, but after testing new ideeas, counters, there abilities, i found them the weakest of all races, as for there build order is the most demanding, and to be able to build up a diverse fleet requires a lot of funds.
Considering i'm not a good player (medium at best), i was still able to beat a good, better player ( i will not name him/her) whit romulan avatar mujiral, whom i never played online.
I made silly mistakes, bad moves, lost some ships, but still whit my low game performance i not only keped the edge, but managed to hold off the klingon expanshion, cripeling his ship production a.k.a won the game.
Of course it was not the only game or only time i played vs klingon, or klingon miself.
After countless games, players of different skill levels ( better micromanagement) are beaten if they play klingon.
Also considring team play, 2 vs 2 or more, klingos are a poore ally. I rarely get a player online whom is willing to play as klingon, or is happy that i choose klingon (well after the game is over and we lost).
Perhaps i'm not getting the "feeling of klingon play stile" ?
So if you steel reading, here is what is the problem for me and maybe others:
1 vs 1 then 2 vs 2 or more
I - Klingon vs Fedaration (Mayson for most players, works also whit Risner)
build a shipyard and mining, start to build B'rels (expanded the yard of course) after 4+3=7 B'rels you have sufficient power to kill miners fast (works faster whit TaQ'roja). Now the problem here is the B'rels short range. I can halt the expanshion if i'm lucky, and the opponent forgot to build a turret, or has no ships defending the newly established mining. Still most players dont make this mistake.
So if i face federation the outcome of the battle if i stay to long is a disaster for me (lets say i play klingon or am talking as the klingon player). You will mostly face 2-3 Sabers + the all mighty warp in (i'm not saynig warp in is overpowered). Consider facing this force, 7 B'rels vs 2-3 long range Sabers + 3 ships from warp in, the odds are against you, as pulse weapons damage is reduced bie the size of the ship it hits, and loosing 7 ships early in game is in my book a disaster.
So all i can do is kill the miners a.s.a.p. and trie to kill some miners at the main base. Here mi short ranged fleet is at a huge disadvantage considering other races. On low movement autonomy you can manage to kill 2-3 miners at best before the opponent engages you. So you can stay and fight (loose) or trie to fall back under cloake, which takes 4 seconds.
Lets say you handeld this at top efficiency, and managed to fall back to harass the expansion again, as whit klnigons the only way to take the lead in the game is to have the opponent on his/her toes.
Now comes the question what next ? Am i still producieng B'rels ? Managed to expand to another moon paire ? Or was my opponent clewer and stopped mi expanshion while i was harassnig ? That means of course i stopped his/heres as well.
Against the federation a B'rel spam is not a good ideea, considering the force you will face. Norways plasma coil is still effective vs B'rel spam, not to mention Canaverals sensor blackout. Besides Martoks B'rels (yes i know he is a late game avatar) lack the firepower, but spamming is not about individual ships firepower. So all you can do is tech up, your best bet beeing the K'beajQ, maybe supported whit the SuS'a. Note that these ships are build slower and cost more, so forget about spamming.
Lets assume the previos scenario worked, you stooped the expanshion mining operation, and hit 2-3 miners at the main base, you have axpanded, and started to mine. Now anny player whit a bit of tactical sence will make it a priority to stop your mining. So all you can do either build a verry expansive turret and hide your fleet nearbie (mening you wont harass), split up your forces, B'rels harass K'beajQ defends, or an all out riskier attack.
Whatever you choose, there will be consequences, that will lead to your fall. Let me explaine.
1st: abandonig harassment is a realy bad ideea, you are letting the opponent recover, bie now the second warp in is coming, and at least 1-2 Canaverals are on the battlefield. A confrontation is inevitable, and the chances of you winning this battle are slim to none
2nd: splitting up your forces to hunt miners, while provieding defence against an attack is somewhat effective (all depends on the opponents skills here)
3rd: an all out attack might give you an edge but you are risking your expanshion
Also dont forget that your opponent is human, and might consider killing your main base mining as well, a good combination is Exelsior Sabers and Canaverals which all are fast ships, and can cripple your fleets firepower if you chose to defend.
This is the moment the balance of power stars to shift, as klingons are about to loose in the next 10 minutes max. All the 3 options can be countered whit little effort. The end result whit all the scenarios is you loose eithert your minig or fleet. From this point on you are only prolonging the inevitable.
II - Klingon vs Romulan ( most players choose Helev, but Mijural will win as well)
Same approache 7 B'rels, harass, attack the main base miners, but ... you are forgeting Helevs refitted long ranged Rhienns. The better cloack (2 seconds) and range (long) and fiering arc (360) while your short range only foreward fire, dispite your faster speed will end the skirmish not in the klingons advantage.
Spamming here is not a bad ideea, but the multi target disruptor + Kaleh manuver (superior firepower) will hold you at bay, besides a romulan awoydes oppen confrontation and strikes from the shadows, mening killing all your miners in hits and runs. No point in furter writhing, most players know that the battle is decided here in the shadows.
For Mijural an early expenshion is more possible, dispite Shrikes forward arc and medium range, you have the advantage to tech up later, concentrate on turrets for defence ( these are stronger then Helevs), and the bonus of the experimental pulse disropter + the shadow way ... do i need to continue ?
III - Klingon vs Dominion ( Puretech or Breen ... almost the same ... result is bitter defeat)
Wath else, 7 B'rels harass (note less needed whit TaQ'roja 5 might work), but even so if the opponent does not ram your Chor (builder) you will be outproduced bie puretech, or outranged bie breen (cruiser).
Most of the time the opponets best way to cripple the klingon is to ram his Topmey (miners) as in the long run it wins the game.
IV - Klingon vs Borg ( Assimilate or Optimize will granth either an existence as a borg drone or entry to Sto'Vo'Kor)
B'rels might work (need further testing) whit harassment but the best bet is torpedo power. So for Martok its the Sus'a and for TaQ'roja the Veqlargh. I know some players whom actulay managed to slaugher me as Borg whit klingon ... but sorry to say that was before i read the "GUIDE", so basicaly TaQ'roja has a better chance then Martok, but considering the Veqlargh weake stats (12 defence) and the SuS'a range (short), i'm sorry to say ... borg win either bie assimilation or oblitheration.
V - Klingon vs Klingon ( Civil war )
Duhhhh .. the better player wins ..
For multiplayer there is far to manny variations to write them all, needles to say, knowing the klingons inability for propper defence and/or agressive play stile, the easy way is to tell your ally to attack the klingon player together, cripple his mining .. get rid of one opponent leaving you whit a much better chance for a 2 vs 1 ...
As for letting him tech up and have sone ships most races still beat them bie range or tech ( special abilities).
Of course the level of help you get from your ally is immesurabely helpfull, the outcome is not that hard to guess if the opponents you face work well together.
B'rel harassment wokrs well, even better if properly supported bie your ally, but still the chances are not as high to win as if you have chosen an other race.
To be faire, if i get a well dependable ally i can win whit them (klingons), but still its real hard work, and not fun as whit other races.
Now i saide most that i wanted ... a realy long post ...
So my question is :
1. am i the only one who thinks this ?
2. am i that bad as a klingon player ?
3. is micromanagement the aswer ? - then i need 2 more arms .. hands
Aslo i did not mention the big brother of the B'rel, the K'vorth. This is becuse other ships work better, for me at least, and the shield breaking torpedo is nice but it will not kill even miners as you need 4-5 of them (mybe more). Also consider that in most aspects it is a B'rel, just has slightly better stats, more crew and less speed.
For solutions (if the comunity decides they are needed) i have some ideeas, but i realy dont know if should write them here now.
As for a last statement this is still a great mod, but as with everithing there is still room for improvement.
P.S.: sorry for spelling errors, and the post is so long now, after rereading it i cant find the strenght to pay attetion to all the details. An spelling checker would be a nice addition
Hope is was not to rude, but my emotions right now are one of a
I was, and still am not sure if i should post it, but its seem no other player will so i will.
Firts of all this is not to be critical, or cinical, even if my tone implies it, so here goes:
Since i played online (305) i always had a bad feeling playing klingons ( Martok is my favorite - even if the image is flipped ), and i noticed that they lack propper counters to defeat other races, special abilities, build / ship / resource ratio like the other races.
Now i know there is no perfect race, but after testing new ideeas, counters, there abilities, i found them the weakest of all races, as for there build order is the most demanding, and to be able to build up a diverse fleet requires a lot of funds.
Considering i'm not a good player (medium at best), i was still able to beat a good, better player ( i will not name him/her) whit romulan avatar mujiral, whom i never played online.
I made silly mistakes, bad moves, lost some ships, but still whit my low game performance i not only keped the edge, but managed to hold off the klingon expanshion, cripeling his ship production a.k.a won the game.
Of course it was not the only game or only time i played vs klingon, or klingon miself.
After countless games, players of different skill levels ( better micromanagement) are beaten if they play klingon.
Also considring team play, 2 vs 2 or more, klingos are a poore ally. I rarely get a player online whom is willing to play as klingon, or is happy that i choose klingon (well after the game is over and we lost).
Perhaps i'm not getting the "feeling of klingon play stile" ?
So if you steel reading, here is what is the problem for me and maybe others:
1 vs 1 then 2 vs 2 or more
I - Klingon vs Fedaration (Mayson for most players, works also whit Risner)
build a shipyard and mining, start to build B'rels (expanded the yard of course) after 4+3=7 B'rels you have sufficient power to kill miners fast (works faster whit TaQ'roja). Now the problem here is the B'rels short range. I can halt the expanshion if i'm lucky, and the opponent forgot to build a turret, or has no ships defending the newly established mining. Still most players dont make this mistake.
So if i face federation the outcome of the battle if i stay to long is a disaster for me (lets say i play klingon or am talking as the klingon player). You will mostly face 2-3 Sabers + the all mighty warp in (i'm not saynig warp in is overpowered). Consider facing this force, 7 B'rels vs 2-3 long range Sabers + 3 ships from warp in, the odds are against you, as pulse weapons damage is reduced bie the size of the ship it hits, and loosing 7 ships early in game is in my book a disaster.
So all i can do is kill the miners a.s.a.p. and trie to kill some miners at the main base. Here mi short ranged fleet is at a huge disadvantage considering other races. On low movement autonomy you can manage to kill 2-3 miners at best before the opponent engages you. So you can stay and fight (loose) or trie to fall back under cloake, which takes 4 seconds.
Lets say you handeld this at top efficiency, and managed to fall back to harass the expansion again, as whit klnigons the only way to take the lead in the game is to have the opponent on his/her toes.
Now comes the question what next ? Am i still producieng B'rels ? Managed to expand to another moon paire ? Or was my opponent clewer and stopped mi expanshion while i was harassnig ? That means of course i stopped his/heres as well.
Against the federation a B'rel spam is not a good ideea, considering the force you will face. Norways plasma coil is still effective vs B'rel spam, not to mention Canaverals sensor blackout. Besides Martoks B'rels (yes i know he is a late game avatar) lack the firepower, but spamming is not about individual ships firepower. So all you can do is tech up, your best bet beeing the K'beajQ, maybe supported whit the SuS'a. Note that these ships are build slower and cost more, so forget about spamming.
Lets assume the previos scenario worked, you stooped the expanshion mining operation, and hit 2-3 miners at the main base, you have axpanded, and started to mine. Now anny player whit a bit of tactical sence will make it a priority to stop your mining. So all you can do either build a verry expansive turret and hide your fleet nearbie (mening you wont harass), split up your forces, B'rels harass K'beajQ defends, or an all out riskier attack.
Whatever you choose, there will be consequences, that will lead to your fall. Let me explaine.
1st: abandonig harassment is a realy bad ideea, you are letting the opponent recover, bie now the second warp in is coming, and at least 1-2 Canaverals are on the battlefield. A confrontation is inevitable, and the chances of you winning this battle are slim to none
2nd: splitting up your forces to hunt miners, while provieding defence against an attack is somewhat effective (all depends on the opponents skills here)
3rd: an all out attack might give you an edge but you are risking your expanshion
Also dont forget that your opponent is human, and might consider killing your main base mining as well, a good combination is Exelsior Sabers and Canaverals which all are fast ships, and can cripple your fleets firepower if you chose to defend.
This is the moment the balance of power stars to shift, as klingons are about to loose in the next 10 minutes max. All the 3 options can be countered whit little effort. The end result whit all the scenarios is you loose eithert your minig or fleet. From this point on you are only prolonging the inevitable.
II - Klingon vs Romulan ( most players choose Helev, but Mijural will win as well)
Same approache 7 B'rels, harass, attack the main base miners, but ... you are forgeting Helevs refitted long ranged Rhienns. The better cloack (2 seconds) and range (long) and fiering arc (360) while your short range only foreward fire, dispite your faster speed will end the skirmish not in the klingons advantage.
Spamming here is not a bad ideea, but the multi target disruptor + Kaleh manuver (superior firepower) will hold you at bay, besides a romulan awoydes oppen confrontation and strikes from the shadows, mening killing all your miners in hits and runs. No point in furter writhing, most players know that the battle is decided here in the shadows.
For Mijural an early expenshion is more possible, dispite Shrikes forward arc and medium range, you have the advantage to tech up later, concentrate on turrets for defence ( these are stronger then Helevs), and the bonus of the experimental pulse disropter + the shadow way ... do i need to continue ?
III - Klingon vs Dominion ( Puretech or Breen ... almost the same ... result is bitter defeat)
Wath else, 7 B'rels harass (note less needed whit TaQ'roja 5 might work), but even so if the opponent does not ram your Chor (builder) you will be outproduced bie puretech, or outranged bie breen (cruiser).
Most of the time the opponets best way to cripple the klingon is to ram his Topmey (miners) as in the long run it wins the game.
IV - Klingon vs Borg ( Assimilate or Optimize will granth either an existence as a borg drone or entry to Sto'Vo'Kor)
B'rels might work (need further testing) whit harassment but the best bet is torpedo power. So for Martok its the Sus'a and for TaQ'roja the Veqlargh. I know some players whom actulay managed to slaugher me as Borg whit klingon ... but sorry to say that was before i read the "GUIDE", so basicaly TaQ'roja has a better chance then Martok, but considering the Veqlargh weake stats (12 defence) and the SuS'a range (short), i'm sorry to say ... borg win either bie assimilation or oblitheration.
V - Klingon vs Klingon ( Civil war )
Duhhhh .. the better player wins ..
For multiplayer there is far to manny variations to write them all, needles to say, knowing the klingons inability for propper defence and/or agressive play stile, the easy way is to tell your ally to attack the klingon player together, cripple his mining .. get rid of one opponent leaving you whit a much better chance for a 2 vs 1 ...
As for letting him tech up and have sone ships most races still beat them bie range or tech ( special abilities).
Of course the level of help you get from your ally is immesurabely helpfull, the outcome is not that hard to guess if the opponents you face work well together.
B'rel harassment wokrs well, even better if properly supported bie your ally, but still the chances are not as high to win as if you have chosen an other race.
To be faire, if i get a well dependable ally i can win whit them (klingons), but still its real hard work, and not fun as whit other races.
Now i saide most that i wanted ... a realy long post ...
So my question is :
1. am i the only one who thinks this ?
2. am i that bad as a klingon player ?
3. is micromanagement the aswer ? - then i need 2 more arms .. hands
Aslo i did not mention the big brother of the B'rel, the K'vorth. This is becuse other ships work better, for me at least, and the shield breaking torpedo is nice but it will not kill even miners as you need 4-5 of them (mybe more). Also consider that in most aspects it is a B'rel, just has slightly better stats, more crew and less speed.
For solutions (if the comunity decides they are needed) i have some ideeas, but i realy dont know if should write them here now.
As for a last statement this is still a great mod, but as with everithing there is still room for improvement.
P.S.: sorry for spelling errors, and the post is so long now, after rereading it i cant find the strenght to pay attetion to all the details. An spelling checker would be a nice addition
Hope is was not to rude, but my emotions right now are one of a
posted on July 23rd, 2009, 5:30 pm
Well stated and eloquent Dex 
Although I think that Martok Klingons do stand the best chance against the Borg, it is very iffy nonetheless--and depends a lot on the skill of the Martok opponent. As you know, I tend to agree with all your points--I just think I need more testing... although I'm pretty satisfied at this point to say that the Klingons need something, anything, because they have some serious issues. Probably the firearc is mainly to blame for this issues, and I think this could be compensated if most Klingon units were given an increase in speed. As it is, the B'rel can barely chase down most opponent's destroyers, and it is usually suicide to do so because all other destroyers have 360 degree fire, asides from unupgraded Rhienns and of course Shrikes. This combined with the short range, means that they get pounded while trying to catch up... and so it is better to retreat... which in turn kills the early Klingon attack as the range of weapons is only 180 degrees forward and the cloak is too long.... If Klingons were given more of a cavalry charge aspect, they could compete... but now the amount of players who competively use them even remotely effectively online is maybe 1 or 2 (as far as I've seen).
Weak economy is also a very big problem for the Klingon player. Perhaps if the turrets construction time were lessened, it would be more useful in stemming attacks... but at the moment, even if you begin construction as soon as possible, your opponent can build up a fleet of Warp-Ins, or a fleet of Rhienns, or some Detectors etc (or one Attack Bug--that damage really needs to be fixed by the way
), to kill that construction ship building that expensive turret.
Although I think that Martok Klingons do stand the best chance against the Borg, it is very iffy nonetheless--and depends a lot on the skill of the Martok opponent. As you know, I tend to agree with all your points--I just think I need more testing... although I'm pretty satisfied at this point to say that the Klingons need something, anything, because they have some serious issues. Probably the firearc is mainly to blame for this issues, and I think this could be compensated if most Klingon units were given an increase in speed. As it is, the B'rel can barely chase down most opponent's destroyers, and it is usually suicide to do so because all other destroyers have 360 degree fire, asides from unupgraded Rhienns and of course Shrikes. This combined with the short range, means that they get pounded while trying to catch up... and so it is better to retreat... which in turn kills the early Klingon attack as the range of weapons is only 180 degrees forward and the cloak is too long.... If Klingons were given more of a cavalry charge aspect, they could compete... but now the amount of players who competively use them even remotely effectively online is maybe 1 or 2 (as far as I've seen).
Weak economy is also a very big problem for the Klingon player. Perhaps if the turrets construction time were lessened, it would be more useful in stemming attacks... but at the moment, even if you begin construction as soon as possible, your opponent can build up a fleet of Warp-Ins, or a fleet of Rhienns, or some Detectors etc (or one Attack Bug--that damage really needs to be fixed by the way
), to kill that construction ship building that expensive turret.
posted on July 23rd, 2009, 5:40 pm
Last edited by Darthashur on July 23rd, 2009, 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
posted on July 23rd, 2009, 5:45 pm
Last edited by Tyler on July 23rd, 2009, 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
posted on July 23rd, 2009, 5:47 pm
I've played Fleet ops for several weeks now and my favourite side is Federation. And as I've tried every other side available I too believe that the Klingons are the weakest among all others.
Cloaking is almost useless. I only use it to hide larger fleet movements.
It takes too long to get better ships and weapon range is mainly "short".
And a spelling checker would really be nice for some of us
Cloaking is almost useless. I only use it to hide larger fleet movements.
It takes too long to get better ships and weapon range is mainly "short".
And a spelling checker would really be nice for some of us
posted on July 23rd, 2009, 5:49 pm
Last edited by Darthashur on July 23rd, 2009, 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
@ Dominus Isn´t it funny that you can spend vast amounts of resources on speed upgrades and klingon ships are still too slow ? 
posted on July 23rd, 2009, 5:53 pm
posted on July 23rd, 2009, 5:56 pm
Firefox has a built in spell checker... sometimes it's annoying though (I just switched to that browser due to some errors with IE :( )
I wouldn't say cloaking is almost useless--far from it. However, it is not as useful as the Romulans cloak, and is best used for hiding your firepower at outposts etc, or even the first attack wave. You can rarely use it to get away effectively though--something superior speed would help with (B'rels get away with greater frequency due to the faster speed).
The short/medium range combined with mediocre speed means you can never catch up to and kill most Federation or Romulan or Bren avatar units....
Indeed Darthashur, I hate that. Not to mention those speed upgrades are mid-late game... and if I don't have the speed to get away or attack in early game... I'm toast >:(
Righto Galefury, I just can't get anything solid on the Klingons to write about! 
. I have a few good strategies for TaQ'roja--but they require very close attention to detail. For the rest, I can maybe give hints, but it is pretty darn hard to play them.
I wouldn't say cloaking is almost useless--far from it. However, it is not as useful as the Romulans cloak, and is best used for hiding your firepower at outposts etc, or even the first attack wave. You can rarely use it to get away effectively though--something superior speed would help with (B'rels get away with greater frequency due to the faster speed).
The short/medium range combined with mediocre speed means you can never catch up to and kill most Federation or Romulan or Bren avatar units....
Indeed Darthashur, I hate that. Not to mention those speed upgrades are mid-late game... and if I don't have the speed to get away or attack in early game... I'm toast >:(
Righto Galefury, I just can't get anything solid on the Klingons to write about! . I have a few good strategies for TaQ'roja--but they require very close attention to detail. For the rest, I can maybe give hints, but it is pretty darn hard to play them.posted on July 23rd, 2009, 6:04 pm
posted on July 23rd, 2009, 6:09 pm
Nice to see people read
Also if you dont mind post some klingon strategies that work for you ?
As for me i cant think of much else, since bie the time i get to Battle yard ships i am already loosing, low on funds and know the high council will skin me alive.
Also if you dont mind post some klingon strategies that work for you ?
As for me i cant think of much else, since bie the time i get to Battle yard ships i am already loosing, low on funds and know the high council will skin me alive.
posted on July 23rd, 2009, 6:20 pm
After tonight I will start writing up Klingon strategies 
See you on the battlefield in a few hours Dexter
Two strats/build order that I tend to like with TaQ'roja is
One: to go with 5 B'rels to harass, expand mining station (not field yard) and start building K'beajQ from the Kahless station (and then the Field Yard), build a Battle Yard, begin producing Sang's, build tech center, research specials... go with 1-2 Qaw'Duj after about 10 Sang' to improve the K'beajQ firepower, tech up to Vor'cha.
Two: (best used against medium range Dominion) begin building tons of Topmey construction ships and B'rels (probably about 10-14) from a Field Yard expandd once. Convert Topmey into K't'inga when needed, and when you run out of tritanium, begin producing K'beajQ instead to make use of extra dilithium. The K't'inga (maybe around 6) and K'beajQ (another 6) will be your heavy strike force while the B'rels harass. Start producing Veqlaragh so aid the K's in attacking base structures... after that, tech up to Sang's.
See you on the battlefield in a few hours Dexter
Two strats/build order that I tend to like with TaQ'roja is
One: to go with 5 B'rels to harass, expand mining station (not field yard) and start building K'beajQ from the Kahless station (and then the Field Yard), build a Battle Yard, begin producing Sang's, build tech center, research specials... go with 1-2 Qaw'Duj after about 10 Sang' to improve the K'beajQ firepower, tech up to Vor'cha.
Two: (best used against medium range Dominion) begin building tons of Topmey construction ships and B'rels (probably about 10-14) from a Field Yard expandd once. Convert Topmey into K't'inga when needed, and when you run out of tritanium, begin producing K'beajQ instead to make use of extra dilithium. The K't'inga (maybe around 6) and K'beajQ (another 6) will be your heavy strike force while the B'rels harass. Start producing Veqlaragh so aid the K's in attacking base structures... after that, tech up to Sang's.
posted on July 23rd, 2009, 6:32 pm
Last edited by tom on July 23rd, 2009, 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
i mostly agree, klingons suck. imo they have pretty nice early game but if other races get their game-ending ships/specials klingons fall short.
i think the problem is that most of klingon ships dont scale well into mid-late game. b'rel/k'vort cant compete with better ships from other races. vorcha is not spammable. negh'var is easily kited by other races and so on. those ships r pretty nice when they first hit the field but after a while they just die to bigger/better counterparts from other races. i'll post some ideas now so my post isn't just whining
a drop in supply cost. reasoning after this is that even if i get better economy cuz of early game advantage i end up having to buy res all the time.
@Optec: i know u have formulas for that but klingon ships die more often then they get repaired. please reconsider the supply costs for klingon ships.
switching global upgrades (speed/weapon/shields) for upgrades per ship class. researchable at yards. something like "b'rel weapon range upgrade" costing 500d/1000t or so upgrading weapon range from short do medium. this would allow klingons to get rid of 1 research station simplifying their tech a bit and scaling their ships to be useful later in the game.
weapon range upgrade with experience. wont help much as klingons, just die as i said b4, but would help.
shield braking torpedo damage buff and some AoE ability do disable engines for short time to punish retreating fleets. now klingon fleet suffers more when when chasing retreating fleet then the retreating fleet.
nerfing those crazy abilities like sensor blackout and shield recharge (c-11 is a bug, right?) would help not only the klingons
klingon gameplay is pretty fine. high off low def ships, cloak, ability to outproduce most other races. i dont find a reason to redesigning entire klingon gameplay just a few tweaks here and there
i think the problem is that most of klingon ships dont scale well into mid-late game. b'rel/k'vort cant compete with better ships from other races. vorcha is not spammable. negh'var is easily kited by other races and so on. those ships r pretty nice when they first hit the field but after a while they just die to bigger/better counterparts from other races. i'll post some ideas now so my post isn't just whining
a drop in supply cost. reasoning after this is that even if i get better economy cuz of early game advantage i end up having to buy res all the time.
@Optec: i know u have formulas for that but klingon ships die more often then they get repaired. please reconsider the supply costs for klingon ships.
switching global upgrades (speed/weapon/shields) for upgrades per ship class. researchable at yards. something like "b'rel weapon range upgrade" costing 500d/1000t or so upgrading weapon range from short do medium. this would allow klingons to get rid of 1 research station simplifying their tech a bit and scaling their ships to be useful later in the game.
weapon range upgrade with experience. wont help much as klingons, just die as i said b4, but would help.
shield braking torpedo damage buff and some AoE ability do disable engines for short time to punish retreating fleets. now klingon fleet suffers more when when chasing retreating fleet then the retreating fleet.
nerfing those crazy abilities like sensor blackout and shield recharge (c-11 is a bug, right?) would help not only the klingons
klingon gameplay is pretty fine. high off low def ships, cloak, ability to outproduce most other races. i dont find a reason to redesigning entire klingon gameplay
just a few tweaks here and there
posted on July 23rd, 2009, 7:01 pm
Khmmm, well I did write a guide on Klingons a while ago, its outdated a bit by now though, though u you want you can read it
The Klingon gameplay in general is quite difficult to pull off successfully, this we can all agree. Their plethora of stations and extremely volurnable ships makes them the hardest race to play, but they, after the Dominion, are also my race of choice. They are just so damn funny
While I dont consider myself a top player anymore, I do still know a few tricks and I dont think Id be easy pray for anyone hehe. My advice on the Klingons would be to, in the early game, focus more on K'beajQ. Their stats got increased a lot in one of the last patches and their survivability and longevity will add a lot to your game. While their price is a little steep for an early vessle, they can also last you easily even untill the early battleship phase of the game.
The other ships I pay closer attention to is the Susa (Borg) and Sang (some times) then VorCha and LusPet and finally NeghVar and Bortas. Your primary ships should be K'beajQ and VorCha though, use the others as heavy calvary (LusPet, NeghVar and Susa) or long range support (Sang) and the "final kill" (Bortas).
The problem with B'Rels is their extremmely weak defense, short range and longevity, as they basically become useless in even the early cruiser phase. Not to mention that they will be kited by any other destroyer in the game, by a player of some skill. The same points apply to the Kvort, though it is a bit better. The only time you should focus on B'Rels is when your opponent is trying to spam destroyers, then you build a few K'beajQ and some B'Rels. Engage his fleet with K'beajQ and sneak up on his fleet with B'Rels.
As for strategy guide, I disagree a bit with the way strategy is explained so step-by-step in the Doms guide (though he deserves all the praise for actually writing it up), so I'll just say this - as with any race, try to counter your opponents ships. I know its extra hard to do this with Klingons, but thats the best I can tell you
The Klingon gameplay in general is quite difficult to pull off successfully, this we can all agree. Their plethora of stations and extremely volurnable ships makes them the hardest race to play, but they, after the Dominion, are also my race of choice. They are just so damn funny
While I dont consider myself a top player anymore, I do still know a few tricks and I dont think Id be easy pray for anyone hehe. My advice on the Klingons would be to, in the early game, focus more on K'beajQ. Their stats got increased a lot in one of the last patches and their survivability and longevity will add a lot to your game. While their price is a little steep for an early vessle, they can also last you easily even untill the early battleship phase of the game.
The other ships I pay closer attention to is the Susa (Borg) and Sang (some times) then VorCha and LusPet and finally NeghVar and Bortas. Your primary ships should be K'beajQ and VorCha though, use the others as heavy calvary (LusPet, NeghVar and Susa) or long range support (Sang) and the "final kill" (Bortas).
The problem with B'Rels is their extremmely weak defense, short range and longevity, as they basically become useless in even the early cruiser phase. Not to mention that they will be kited by any other destroyer in the game, by a player of some skill. The same points apply to the Kvort, though it is a bit better. The only time you should focus on B'Rels is when your opponent is trying to spam destroyers, then you build a few K'beajQ and some B'Rels. Engage his fleet with K'beajQ and sneak up on his fleet with B'Rels.
As for strategy guide, I disagree a bit with the way strategy is explained so step-by-step in the Doms guide (though he deserves all the praise for actually writing it up), so I'll just say this - as with any race, try to counter your opponents ships. I know its extra hard to do this with Klingons, but thats the best I can tell you
posted on July 23rd, 2009, 7:03 pm
Last edited by Dexter on July 23rd, 2009, 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I did not or want to entirely redisign the klingons.
I love the B'rel, D7 (for example K'beajQ) and Vorcha models, but they survivebility is the lowest considering other races. You never have 2 to 1 ratio as whit dominion. Besides where is the honor in that ?
Yes we all know there are still bugs in the game, but thats ok. Single bugs can be fixed, reported, as the A-20 kamikaze, C-11 cascade feedback, the cloake fallowers etc.
For me as playing klingons not one thing is the problem, all those mentioned add up, mayking them for me the hardest to play, therebie killing the fun.
Also i dont mind loosing to a better opponent, whom is better at micromanagement, or had a good strategy and implimented it.
What bothres me is that i know i can beat playes whom i know are better then me with a mediocre gameperformence form me, therebie making the victory soure.
Now that i have the chance to read other peoples responses i know that i am not the only one whom is a bit dissapointed whit them.
For me klingons are warriors, poets, craftsman etc. not just space bikers (i'm a rocker, biker miself), barbarians (i note that westeners use the therm to describe a stupid bulky human), they are thinkers as well. Just because the warrior cast dominates there society does not mean they are all mindless barbarians on some space ships of poore design. Look at the B'rel. It is and was a viable ship since the time of James Tiberius Kirk. Also the old D7. Heck even the romulas used it.
So to think of the klingons as spammers, well it does not fith in my wiev of them. Also we saw them in action on screen, Martok uses 5 B'rels for a hit and run wich Sisko calles "cavalry raide".
I know much of the show is not implimentable, or would not make sence (balance is one of the major issues here - just look at all the Sovereign threads -), but to think a klingon warrior would fight a battle he know has no chance of winning
My God, all the klingon generals would have to be mad (not insane but angry). Is this not the reason Gowron was killed bie Worf ?
Did anyone read the Art of War here (Sun Tzu) To fight a battle or war wich one can not win is madnes, insanity.
Well i wont write an etire book ... so i'll read what others think, wath there observations are :borg:
I love the B'rel, D7 (for example K'beajQ) and Vorcha models, but they survivebility is the lowest considering other races. You never have 2 to 1 ratio as whit dominion. Besides where is the honor in that ?
Yes we all know there are still bugs in the game, but thats ok. Single bugs can be fixed, reported, as the A-20 kamikaze, C-11 cascade feedback, the cloake fallowers etc.
For me as playing klingons not one thing is the problem, all those mentioned add up, mayking them for me the hardest to play, therebie killing the fun.
Also i dont mind loosing to a better opponent, whom is better at micromanagement, or had a good strategy and implimented it.
What bothres me is that i know i can beat playes whom i know are better then me with a mediocre gameperformence form me, therebie making the victory soure.
Now that i have the chance to read other peoples responses i know that i am not the only one whom is a bit dissapointed whit them.
For me klingons are warriors, poets, craftsman etc. not just space bikers (i'm a rocker, biker miself), barbarians (i note that westeners use the therm to describe a stupid bulky human), they are thinkers as well. Just because the warrior cast dominates there society does not mean they are all mindless barbarians on some space ships of poore design. Look at the B'rel. It is and was a viable ship since the time of James Tiberius Kirk. Also the old D7. Heck even the romulas used it.
So to think of the klingons as spammers, well it does not fith in my wiev of them. Also we saw them in action on screen, Martok uses 5 B'rels for a hit and run wich Sisko calles "cavalry raide".
I know much of the show is not implimentable, or would not make sence (balance is one of the major issues here - just look at all the Sovereign threads -), but to think a klingon warrior would fight a battle he know has no chance of winning
My God, all the klingon generals would have to be mad (not insane but angry). Is this not the reason Gowron was killed bie Worf ?Did anyone read the Art of War here (Sun Tzu)
To fight a battle or war wich one can not win is madnes, insanity. Well i wont write an etire book ... so i'll read what others think, wath there observations are :borg:
posted on July 23rd, 2009, 7:15 pm
Attack your opponent's strategy
Indeed, right now the Romulans have their sneakiness, the Feds have their great support powers and powerful defense, the Borg have their super ships, the Dominion have their spam and Bug support... the Klingons though lack the final tough. Perhaps right now a bonus when they lose shields would be good... or Tom's suggestions, or a speed boost. Just something is not right with them and teching up has few benefits with this faction at the moment.
I'll get to you later Baron (:P ), but I will just say that medium range and slower K'beajQ are mostly just cannon fodder against open field forces of Dominion, Federation, and Romulans at the moment. Rhienns can engage at range, Dominion Bugs ram and take out 450 some odd dilithium, and Federation engage at range. Against Borg they are more useful though.
Indeed, right now the Romulans have their sneakiness, the Feds have their great support powers and powerful defense, the Borg have their super ships, the Dominion have their spam and Bug support... the Klingons though lack the final tough. Perhaps right now a bonus when they lose shields would be good... or Tom's suggestions, or a speed boost. Just something is not right with them and teching up has few benefits with this faction at the moment.
I'll get to you later Baron (:P ), but I will just say that medium range and slower K'beajQ are mostly just cannon fodder against open field forces of Dominion, Federation, and Romulans at the moment. Rhienns can engage at range, Dominion Bugs ram and take out 450 some odd dilithium, and Federation engage at range. Against Borg they are more useful though.
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