K'tinga rush too powerful?

posted on October 20th, 2010, 2:08 am

I do feel the need to chime in only partially on topic here.

Looking at these replies, the main thing I see is that rushing takes the fun out of the game for people.  Particularly with comments like Nebula's.  "Unfortunately you have to decide on double-yard or early SFC when you select the first constructor."

I've been saying that since Warcraft II, though.

Summarized:  The very nature of rushes is going to cause complaints that every form of actual rush is 'OP', simply because few people find enjoyment in scrambling to save 0.5 seconds in build times to be able to meet the rush.  Doesn't matter what race does the rush, or what they do it with, so long as it's capable of killing something.

posted on October 20th, 2010, 2:37 am

Every 3 weeks to a month I can always count on a good old "Ship X or Strategy Y is overpowered/underpowered in game Z" from you Neb.  To top it off, your polls are the best, because they have twice as many voting options as they need.  Are "I don't know" and "Maybe.  I'm not sure" really all that different?

It's a completely counterable strategy for anyone not sleeping behind the wheel.  I think it's a lame strategy, but I think that about all the rush strategies.

I will say that I would be ok with a 15 second delay on the cloaking device, the same 15 seconds that any ship already out in the field would get if they decloaked.  I assume that there would be some form of transition process for getting all of the K'tinga's systems battle ready.  They might have to spool up their old rust bucket's cloaking generator before it can be useful again, that sort of thing.

This would give players who scout a little more warning and it would be harder to "trick" people (although I haven't seen anybody do it, because players are super original and always keep their tactics fresh ), and would still allow ktingas to be used offensively, since this only happens at the beginning.  It wouldn't completely bone the rush either, because at some point people know you're coming, so whether you cloak at your base or cloak en route, it makes little difference to some of us.  Obviously it would make it harder to pull off as sneakily, but I'm sure someone will find a way around that obstacle as well, I have faith in you.

Of course, it doesn't matter to me if it gets changed to that or not, since all you have to do now is counter it.  

posted on October 20th, 2010, 2:49 am

good idea. the cloaking device will now be disabled for a while after dispatching

posted on October 20th, 2010, 3:02 am

Well clinsat (who is very good with ktinga rush) did a ktinga rush vs boggz today, and boggz held him off an eventually beat him, so it cant be two op, but then again boggz is a very good player

posted on October 20th, 2010, 6:09 am

I think there is nothing wrong with it as  it stands.  Sure its nasty but there again, all rush tactics are if you are not prepared.  The main question is, if with good scouting, and allowing for slow CPS (clicks per second - starcraft - urgh), perhaps due to drinking while playing, is there a reasonable counter for each race?

The consequence of a failed rush should be that you are then quite behind in resources and/or ships.  If rushing does not have this effect then it promotes a game where rushes become the only accepted strategy (a la Starcraft)

Any good RTS should allow for a wide range of strategies, and perhaps why feds (overpowered monsters that they are  ) are nice because they can turtle to a certain extent with their good turrets and warp-ins.

Basically it would be good if all sides were capable to a greater or lesser extent to rush or turtle or some hybrid strat and to be able to counter opposing strategies.  It would allow for a much wider variety of games to be played.

By the way, not dissing FO here. Compared to many RTS games it has a very wide range of strats available and counters.

My suggestion (and I know Optec has already spoken on what will be).  Just get rid of the cloak.  It means if you are going to commit to the rush then you have to commit.  There is no easy run and hide option available after the attack.

posted on October 20th, 2010, 7:07 am

Well clinsat (who is very good with ktinga rush) did a ktinga rush vs boggz today, and boggz held him off an eventually beat him, so it cant be two op, but then again boggz is a very good player

  I like this. 


All strategies should be tested against ME as a way of determining it's balance .

  Ktinga rush is counterable.  However it definitely does affect a teching player more than it does a non-techer.

posted on October 20th, 2010, 7:35 am

I used KTinga rush some times now and realized, that it absolutely does not work against Borg and Feds. Feds don't care if you get their expansions, they simply build SFC, a single warp in can kill all the KTingas und you as a Klingon player are left with low ressources/ few miners. Borg collectors just don't care about the ridiculous dps of a KTinga.
However, against a Klingon player who uses Ktinga rush there are not much options than KTinga rush. Kvorts are built too slow to counter them that early(you get 1-2 Kvorts while he arrives with 4-6Ktingas+ ...). For Dominion there were some things mentioned.
The miners of Romulans are very weak and can easily be eaten, even by KTingas. But due to the fact that Romulans have many many options against Klingons(I think all of their early- midgame ships can eat Klingons easily) it is not overpowered against them either.
Never forget that Ktinga rush is always a risk. if you do it very early you are left without for a time, meaning you have to instantly win the game. You'll lose if the enemy can counter your Ktingas. If you wait longer(for enough miners to still get ressources, an expansion, 6Ktingas) the enemy may have built ships already to easily counter your Ships.
I voted for no.

posted on October 20th, 2010, 8:10 am

kt should keep cloak. the idea of having a delay before cloak is ready will be realistic and will give a slight nerf. And slight nerfs are good as their changes can be more measured.

posted on October 20th, 2010, 2:12 pm

K'tinga rush, like almost all rush strategies in FO, has a large chance for failure.  If you are off your game, you will fail and fail hard.  Once your opponents get hit with a rush by you...you will never get the same effect again (aka Boggz pays a lot of attention to my build orders as Klingon now..).

Now that the strategy has been out for a while, it loses its shock value and the margin for error decreases.  The key is that we all have to play both to our own strategy and the strategy of our opponent.  Just because we do not like what the opponent is trying to do does not make it wrong.

It took a lot of hard lessons before I learned that countering warp-in with an even faster warp-in might not be the best solution... and that double yarding as Feds was best over time. 

posted on October 20th, 2010, 11:33 pm

Hehe since Boggz hasn't already done this I will take the responsibility of saying that these OP/UP threads are

posted on October 20th, 2010, 11:48 pm

To be honest I don't think balance threads are just quacking, but this strat is not NEW.  That's the key thing here.  This strat has been out for a while and if it were truly imbalanced the many people named Dominus_Noctis would have raised a red flag.

  Ktinga rush can be a real surprise for sure and can cause a lot of headaches if you're not careful.

  Frankly though I think this thread SHOULD have been under Strategy as "How Do I Defeat a Ktinga Rush?" instead of a thinly veiled poll asserting that it's overpowered.

posted on October 21st, 2010, 1:29 am

Early Warp-In has never been a strong 1v1 strat in any case

Easier to just spam Mk2 Excelsiors than warp-in.

K'Tingas realyl are not worth worrying about, just slap a single turret near the closest pair of resource astroids after slapping your mining station there, problem solved.


Better yet would be to just give all miners/builders really low power guns. this means if a small group of low powerd ships runs into a group of them, it wont do as well, yet really has next to no effect on bigger ships.

posted on October 21st, 2010, 1:33 am

You know what else can be a real surprise for a lot of people!? Pyramid rush! or something in the shape of a box that I shouldn't reveal on the forums.

  Frankly though I think this thread SHOULD have been under Strategy as "How Do I Defeat a Ktinga Rush?" instead of a thinly veiled poll asserting that it's overpowered.

But that would ruin the fun of so many confusing poll options to chose from!!!

[Elim]

posted on October 21st, 2010, 2:03 am

Last edited by Elim on October 21st, 2010, 2:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

Easier to just spam Mk2 Excelsiors than warp-in.

K'Tingas realyl are not worth worrying about, just slap a single turret near the closest pair of resource astroids after slapping your mining station there, problem solved.


Better yet would be to just give all miners/builders really low power guns. this means if a small group of low powerd ships runs into a group of them, it wont do as well, yet really has next to no effect on bigger ships.

Sorry, don't take it seriously, but my opinion about your whole post is:   

(I know, I'm a jerk...)

posted on October 21st, 2010, 2:12 am

Easier to just spam Mk2 Excelsiors than warp-in.

K'Tingas realyl are not worth worrying about, just slap a single turret near the closest pair of resource astroids after slapping your mining station there, problem solved.


Better yet would be to just give all miners/builders really low power guns. this means if a small group of low powerd ships runs into a group of them, it wont do as well, yet really has next to no effect on bigger ships.

If you want to try it sometime ill be on tunngle (maybe i should practice how to do it once first)