K'tinga rush too powerful?

posted on October 19th, 2010, 5:31 am

I've noticed that lately every single match I play that involves Klingons (Klingons who aren't me), has a K'tinga rush in it. And that every time the K'tingas come at me I lose ships horribly.
It just seems that the ability to outnumber your opponent by 3 to 1 (or in some cases, 9 to 1 against Feds), is too powerful if the K'tinga rusher's micro is good.
The K'tingas give a critical mass at a time when most players have just 1-3 ships.

I have been told that turrets are the answer as K'tingas can't stand up to them, but turreting every moon is  hard even for Feds. Not possible in early game for Klingons.
Also, the mining of the rusher is vulnerable, but it doesn't matter since they still have those 9 ships and don't need to produce more for a while.
You could go out and attack the rusher's mining while it's just getting back up  just to put them on the defense, but all they'll do is pop their Topmeys into more K'tinga, giving them an even bigger fleet to outnumber you with. Maybe they'll keep some Topmey alive to keep mining, bt any K'tinga that would die instead adds to their fleet.

In conclusion: critical mass in the very early game, no need to produce for a bit, and defense against it is nearly impossible.

Maybe I'm missing an obvious way to stop the K'tingas and win, if so, please tell me just how you defeat such a rush.

posted on October 19th, 2010, 5:51 am

ktinga and brel combo is easy to beat, however  the kbeq is what kills most people ^^;

posted on October 19th, 2010, 6:25 am

double yards!

posted on October 19th, 2010, 6:31 am

Double yard Bug spam for Dominion should take care of those K'tinga rushes. If you are brave a B8 rush might help to take over some. If you are really super brave (or Elim) a B5 rush can hold off Ktinga's too.

posted on October 19th, 2010, 6:33 am

Galaxy spam is overpowered.

posted on October 19th, 2010, 7:39 am

I will give you this:


    I think that K'tinga rush has 1 VERY valuable asset on it's side:  the opponent cannot really see it coming and therefore cannot build the appropriate things to anticipate it.


  I do think that's a pretty important part of it.  Right now the Ktinga rush build doesn't look any different from a build making b'rels and kbq.  That's a toughie because you basically have to assume that ANY Taq'roja player is going to rush or be flattened by it .

[Dominus_Noctis]

posted on October 19th, 2010, 3:09 pm

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on October 19th, 2010, 3:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Of course, each faction has several standard builds that do quite nicely against the K't'inga rush, and most players don't take the time to queue up one Topmey at a time, but instead queue up 8 from the get-go, and keep the queue filled up too  .

EDIT: incidentally, you mentioned that if you go and attack the Klingon's mining, then they'll just pop the miners. If they do that, they've lost instantly. The K't'inga rush is an extremely fragile rush (like all of 'em!) and popping miners is just not an option. In fact, neither is "stopping production" as you say - if you want a succesful K't'inga rush, you must be constantly producing, which is why you really can't do anything other than 1 yard K'beajQ until your mining is all back up and you have a secure position. If you continue producing B'rel, you'll run out of Tritanium instantly, and if you tech up right away, you'll lose your supply too. If you stay too low and don't make enough kills, you'll run out of supplies (Topmey eat up a lot of supplies). You also mentioned that Klingons have no counter - but they too have *gasp* K't'ingas of their own . Not to mention their standard builds that make K't'ingas into swish cheese.

[Elim]

posted on October 19th, 2010, 4:01 pm

Last edited by Elim on October 19th, 2010, 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I must agree with Boggz and TUN, it's not op but it's very annoying. The worst thing about it, that you cannot really know if it happens or not. My general problem with it, that its too easy to "cancel", way easier then tech swith for other races for example dominion.

My example: You start with breens, go scout kling base, you see that he is taq, going for trit expand and queued up lots of miners.. then omfg ktinga rush damnit!  You start to double yard bugz like an idiot, in the meantime he hunts your scout (not that hard) so you don't have intel anymore (you are scared you don't want to spend money for a new one)

So, the klingon sees massed bugz (7-9 bugz for the timing of the standard ktinga rush), and he thinks: hmmmm, I wont pop miners, lets spam kvorts! aaaaand you are screwed. 

He probably has full expansion by that time, and you just wait near your yards for the ktingas to decloak, and it just doesn't happen, after 1-2 mins you start being suspicious, go scout wth is happening, and booom kvorts kbeqs decloak and your bugz are dead. You can probably fend the first push with some luck and huge losses, but then its way to late to wait for a bomber or b-8 proto...
Thats why I hate ktinga rush, you can't really go agressive because then klings will just pop miners and intercept you, or kill your proxy yard while you harass mining, not a good trade...  It shares the same problem as the super early (3 miner, rif, 3scube+probe) borg rush. You can't really scout it especially if you are a non-cloaking race.

Sorry for the too much bullshit, but i coulnd't really compress it more.

PS: Before anybody says, don't just spam bugz, lets mix your fleet poor stupid elim! I will say: ok then you don't do the exact counter of the rush.
2-3 bombers in the mix? - brels will wipe the floor with them
s-2's?  - they are generally horrible aginst klingons
b-8's? - they can't be really efficient before you have at least 5 of them,so  a 3-4 b-8's mixed with 4-5 bugz are horrible aginst ktinga rush

Btw thats just dominion, I still think feds can turret nicely because even a lonely mayson phazer will decimate fleets of ktingas. But what about the other races? (I know probably one counter as borg, but nothing more)

posted on October 19th, 2010, 4:25 pm

We did some adjustments to the K't'inga and changed the dispatch storage containers slightly, to make it more attractive to be used for a defensive purpose. After using dispatch, the K't'inga is now awarded with a short-term attribute bonus, but dispatch is only available while the Topmey is close to a mining station. That should help a bit. Yet, I do still think that using some K't'ingas in an offensive is - and should remain - a valid strategy.

[Dominus_Noctis]

posted on October 19th, 2010, 4:35 pm

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on October 19th, 2010, 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thanks for posting that Optec

Elim, if a Dominion player spams Bugs out of two yards (going double yard at HQ), the only way the Klingon can counter the opponent is by doing a K'Vort rush or by going with an early Qaw'Duj (but that's a very microintensive game). If they don't start off with a K'Vort rush or the latter, Dominion wins, without exception. A one yard Klingon strat is simply too weak (and doesn't offer repair) to counter the numbers - you'll have to go double yard, or bust.

As for the Scube Rush - exactly the same boat. You know that 2 miners = Assim/Dodeca rush, 3 miners = Scube rush.

These are optimized rush strategies - they have a strong beginning, and peter out very quickly. They require good micromanagement and aggressiveness to pull off successfully and if you hesitate or stay on the defensive, they will fail and there is little way to get out of them once begun.

In general I'm seeing a lot of "what ifs" rather than "let's test" or "this is what happened when I did so and so".

EDIT: blasted typos!

EDIT2: Hell, Elim, I'll take that bet -you can wait for my 7-9 Bugs before going for K'Vort, and we'll see how it turns out . Sound ok?

posted on October 19th, 2010, 4:49 pm

Well, you may be right. I don't wanted to generate panic, or something like that with my post.    Actually, I've faced only once a "cancelled" ktinga rush. The worst thing was loosing my scout, I learned from that game, if you face cloakers, you always need to move with your scout(s), at least patrol it if you can't pay fully attention.

I guess I was just terrorized by Clint's ktingas too much lately.

posted on October 19th, 2010, 5:50 pm

however, Ktingas are not that bad to counter. Monsoons kill them fast, A-20 even take less damage from their already weak weapons (so three bugs vs 6 Ktingas can be still successful), also, since the Ktingas lose subsystems very fast, they are easily countered by few B'Rels and Kbeajq and even Sabers can be a threat to them; romulan Rhienns deal high damage with their pulses and Shrikes (the icing on the cake in case of being outnumbered by Ktingas) even disable Ktinga-weapons since it's a destroyer and not a cruiser. And Borg only have to fear Ktingas if they are support for stronger klingon vessels because they add DPS in the opening of a battle, but they are depleted fast.

posted on October 19th, 2010, 11:00 pm

In my opinion, the K'tinga rush is a viable strategy and not invincible.  It is a lot harder to pull off than people give credit and it severely limits your tech in the early game depending on map configuration.

It does change the way opponents need to think about Klingons though.  A fed skipping over sabers will have to turret or micro well.  Single yard dominion also suffers a bit, just like it would against any other rush strategy.  The upside is that if you survive the rush, you generally have better, ranked, ships.

If nothing else, I think the threat of K'tinga rush adds some much needed "apprehension" when playing against Klingons.

posted on October 20th, 2010, 1:30 am

To Optec: I think that ability description needs to be changed a bit, as it implies adding 3 to the Topmey's values. I'm also worried that 35 seconds may be slightly too long, as on smaller maps the 130 speed K'tinga could easily get to enemy ships before the boost wears off.
I'm not sure tho, how long will it take for K'tinga to get across a small map?

To Dominus: Using an identical strat is not a counter, it may give equal footing, but you're worse off than the rusher if you pop yours since the enemy likely queued up freighters and didn't build Field Research (can you afford those new Topmey's with Field Research built, and can your econ recover as quick?) Also, if you're Martok you're gonna be paying more for miners than the rusher, and getting less supply from B'rel rankup. There needs to be something that can give you at least a slight advantage to have a real counter strategy.
I'm not sure what counter strategies you have in mind for other factions. Maybe you mean double-yard Intrepid spam? Unfortunately you have to decide on double-yard or early SFC when you select the first constructor. Not that it's really super OP against Feds, they can sort of handle it if a turret is put up before mining station. Feds OPness can cause K'tinga rush to lose power earlier than against other factions it I think.

Other stuff: I don't think 3 bugs will do it, remember that we're talking 9 ships total here, and that Bugs themselves aren't too high in defense. Bugs also can't cloak. Double yard Bug spam would certainly do it, but don't you need an expansion for that? K'tingas tend to obliterate expansions, unless you already have enuff Bugs to escort.
It's not that it's invincible, just too powerful if it uncloaks on top of your fleet or unprotected mining. How hard it is to pull off are irrelevant since what matters are what happens when a skilled player uses it.
If you're playing a non-cloaking race, and K'tinga rush decloaks on top of you, you can pretty much say goodbye to your 1-2 ships, and won't have much of a chance of raiding the Klingon's weak economy.
I have no idea how K'tingas could get a nerf that I would be happy with, Maybe if they initially couldn't cloak after popping or something, but I doubt any of you will like that.

posted on October 20th, 2010, 2:02 am

I believe the effect is intended to be only valid when in the vicinity of the Refinery itself

In this case the onus is all on you Nebula. I and others have tested this strategy quite extensively in the weeks leading up to (and after) adding the build order to the guide. You're using a lot of if's in your argument, and I think it would be best if you continued to test and see what works best for you, rather than just hypothesizing . Dominion double yarding is THE strongest counter to the K't'inga rush, and a competent player can expect to take zero losses from it.

Also, remember that the Feds - as will all factions - don't just have two build orders which are feasible  . Early Warp-In has never been a strong 1v1 strat in any case