How Dare You Say That Ship is Useless!

posted on April 6th, 2009, 2:57 am

yeah, i came to this thread, and went back trying to fidn the right thread, till i realized i was on it

yeah kligons need some serious early game power reduction in my opinion, i got a fleet of like 14 ships together, a descnet, some other warpin ships, maybye another descent, a sovy or two, some excelsior 2, a few akira,s and then some intrpid and saber, all of a sudden the kligon attacks with this stupid feild of fire thing, so i go to have my fleet attack, only problem was, i only had 4 ships left, i lost a turret, my repair ship, contruct ship, and a miner or two, cus i had no miners there, and this was just when i was starting to get sovys, and the enemy fleet, idk what ship he had, but he didnt have more then 6-8 of them, (cus i had wiped out his brel and kvort easily with cloak detection) but when the feild of fire hit me, utter destuction, and with that outpost gone.............. slaughter, he just comes in a does that stupid fire thing on my starbase, by by starbase, and of course, a last minute descent warpin, and a sovy, excelsior two, akira and two intrepids, and two turrets cant take on all of that, specially since his other ships got my mining down below, which actually had some nice protection............. it was horrible

posted on April 6th, 2009, 3:43 am

Field of Fire is middle to late game Ray. It requires 2 (or is it 3) research stations, the research, and the Luspet class to work. Though I'll need a bit more detail to comment. It sounds to me though that you just got out-microed. 

Incidently, which avatar were you playing?

@SaoMagnifico: actually, I'm just starting to learn Klingon strats, I'm just irritated that you don't require as much fleet mixing to win (at least in that battle; I've seen fleet mixing in other ones... such as Ray's post just above mine apparently)

[tom]

posted on April 6th, 2009, 7:11 pm

Last edited by tom on April 14th, 2009, 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

i can't take this any more first the tavara nerf, then the feds boost, then i think something about he borg, then the breen cruiser, now the klingons & descent rush. thinking of it if everything is OP then the balance is just fine

i did this kind of whining once (the b'rel stuff) and i feel v bad about this now as i was wrong. ray u should test it for at least a week or 2 before u draw such a big conclusion.

on the topic

I'm starting to think that Spectre refits for the Generix just aren't worth it as they are essentially Frigates with weaker weapons (though the passive ability is nice as it decreases damage taken by torpedoes).

it has more shields&health, can fire while cloak, is good vs torpedo ships. v nice ships imo and quite useful.

Anybody got any ideas on how to reduce the "spam" nature of Klingon though? I just played a game with just Veqlarg and B'rel... and it made me want to hit myself.

somebody somewhere compared the klingons to the zerg. could u win with 200 zerglings? sure. can u win with just b'rel spam? sure. does that mean klingons r for braindead spammers and need a redo. NO! it's just the way they r, 'easy to learn, hard to master' as u need more then spamming b'rels to win vs a good fed player

posted on April 6th, 2009, 8:36 pm

Actually, even though the support refit looks like it has more shields and health, the weapons are practically identical to the Frigate, but do less damage as far as I can tell (especially to destroyers). In fact, it is WORSE against torpedo ships because it fires pulses which do more against small ships than large. Likewise, it doesn't fire torps of its own so can't pound bigger torp carrying ships. Its only saving grace is that it takes less damage from torp ships... but has a smaller offense than the frigate by 4 and an increased defense by 1. Not worth it perhaps unless…: I didn't know it could fire while cloaked though, is that really the case (wow, I can't believe that I missed that *facepalm*)??!!

In regards to spam though, the unfortunate side of things was that I was facing off against a Borg player and a Dominion player in a FFA, so no Norways to clean up spam. However, as I've said before, I really do want to learn some Klingon strategies (although you were only on once this weekend, and I just missed you). I also was not calling them only good for Klingon "brain-dead spammers" as you implied. There are some races that are just not used that much *cough Dominion* and that is not because they are "hard to master" as you put it: they just don't pack the punch in certain aspects which makes them unbalanced. Don't confuse me with this "someone" that compared Klingons to Zerg. I am not saying that the Klingons can just spam B’rel, I am saying that it seems to me to be quite difficult to tech up with Klingons and go for larger ships, when you have impressive lower level cheap ships. Hence why I said they have more of a spam nature. Especially against races that DO NOT have such good spam filters as Norways (or Lu’Spets). If you don’t think the Klingons need any changes, could you explain why, rather than just tell me that it isn’t true?

On other things, the Tavara nerf was needed, as was the Breen nerf. Please don’t exaggerate and generalize : nobody (I hope) is saying everything is OP, but there are obviously some flaws to certain units in this game. Otherwise we should be seeing every unit used at some point, rather than only seeing a few units for some races (Feds for example I find to be remarkably well balanced... while certain other races...). Surely you aren’t arguing that, for example, the Griffin is a capable ship and its special is used quite often?

[Optec]

posted on April 6th, 2009, 8:53 pm

Last edited by Optec on April 6th, 2009, 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

we are of course working on to the point that every vessel is usable and interesting, i don't think we have real useless stuff at the moment, but we will try to underline each vessels personal character a bit more within the next balancing patches

posted on April 6th, 2009, 8:57 pm

Looking forward to it 

posted on April 6th, 2009, 8:58 pm

The Griffin for example has been promoted to a heavy ship and got all stats increased to serve as a better "backbone cruiser" (similar to the vorcha) and the shrike gets special destroyer-disabling weaponry. The Dominion Siege Cruiser got changed to a more combat oriented support vessel with much higher defensive and offensive capabilities, to give the dominion a good "phaser cruiser" thats less specialized like most other dominion vessels. Similar stuff will always be changed in every patch. balancing just isn't something that we take easily, we do calculate and experiment much before touching or adding units and we are revalidating the current balancing permanentely with your help we will find the last disadvantaged vessels!

[tom]

posted on April 6th, 2009, 9:00 pm

Last edited by tom on April 6th, 2009, 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

i was misunderstood but it happens so often ... anyway

I also was not calling them only good for Klingon "brain-dead spammers" as you implied.

i've never said u did. i meant that if i were a brain-dead spammer i would probobly play kilngons because of how good bre'ls, k'vorts & arty ships r. that's all.

nobody (I hope) is saying everything is OP

that was a joke man. not v good but still easy to spot

Don't confuse me with this "someone" that compared Klingons to Zerg.

i'm not. i'm just to lazy to find the person who said that.

well i think i'll just pm u so we can discuss the rest insted of doing it here.

posted on April 6th, 2009, 9:20 pm

Ah the internet, so great for misunderstandings!

Yeah, I should probably hold off judgement of new ships until after the patch. I had some ideas for an "overused" ships thread, but I guess I'll have to wait and see what has been changed 

Still, one thing I do find is how versatile Romulan early game ships are: they all have similar weapons or can be refitted similarly... which makes them jack of all trades (and thus the cheapest one will always be built ... leading to never ending SPAAAAAM!). This is more directed at the Rhienn and Generix Frigate refits than anything though  . I usually don't seem to make it to the big shipyard before the game is over... 

posted on April 6th, 2009, 10:51 pm

Well ,I feel like pointing out something about the Lus'pet, so here goes: In one Klingon newspost, optec clearly stated that (not exact, but it's  close enough)

the Lus'pet was meant to be a heavy escort, similar to the Defiant, for short-ranged destroyer escorts to make sure that they make it to the target, which is why it has Cluster Torpedos and Field of Fire.

Now with that off my chest, lets get back to the origonal post.

The truly best spammed vessel, IMO, is the K'Tinga. I know what you're all thinking, "What does he mean by that?" Well, for 1 thing, it's veeery cheap, as it's a friggin' freighter when you first build it.
2nd, is that although it's weak, it more then makes up for it with it's speed, long-range capabilities, and cloaking device. A fleet of those bad biys can take down almost any foe, with the exeption of a Starbase.

See my point? (If you're wondering, I use that phrase when I can't think of anything else to say, thich is a lot. )

posted on April 6th, 2009, 10:58 pm

Build speed combined with only one place to build it means that it is too slow to be spammed effectively I think 

posted on April 6th, 2009, 11:25 pm

well the problem with mine was i got pinned down to quickly, trying to manage cloak detection till i was able to get some sensors up, and make a cloak sensor net, but he went to field of fire afap and when that happend........... i had mayson, but none of the defenseive stuff would wortk, i lost 10 ships in about 1 second, just because of field of fire

[Dominus_Noctis]

posted on April 6th, 2009, 11:32 pm

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on April 7th, 2009, 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

As fast as possible means what, 30-40 minutes into the game? Seriously, you have to build both shipyards, 3 tech facilities, do the research, and then pump out at least 3 Lus'pets to take out an Akira (not to mention still building mining and such to adequately support such an endeavor). Probably he was harassing too the entire time.... so it takes a good long while to get that far up the tree  .

You can get cloak detection within the first 3 minutes of the game if you go straight for the research facilities with Feds: usually when I play against Romies or Klings as Feds I build a pulse turret at first expansion, then quickly go for cloak detect and a sensor station (along with building Norways and researching Plasma Coil). Field of Fire is certainly nice though, you have to keep your ships spaced a part to defend against that one.

On another note though: is it possible that we will ever get some sort of thing that will show us the radius of effect of a special weapon when we click to use it? This would be a heck of a lot nicer than simply guessing whether ships are in range and aid in fleet spacing to avoid area of effect weapons etc 

[Dominus_Noctis]

posted on April 7th, 2009, 12:16 am

Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on April 7th, 2009, 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

I know that changes have already been implemented for Dominion Bugs, but perhaps some more are in order? We know from the show that Bugs are very fast, have weak shields, but pack a punch... so why not make Bugs even faster than Rhienn, keep the medium range (or make them short range), make the defense weaker... and make their polaron beams a great deal stronger against enemy shielding. Also, to keep in line more with the show, perhaps only forward firing weapons would be good... as well as a fast acceleration and turning speed to keep them different from BoP's 

Perhaps also making the ram option more powerful would be in order?

posted on April 7th, 2009, 12:25 am

agreed.