Federation - Small Destroyer Saber

posted on June 18th, 2011, 11:37 am

But in the moment they are just torptanks and the cheap ones targetet first. Most of the time this is not needed and with just Ints and Moosons you are far more cost effective.

That's the point! When a unit will not be used so much, it is useless... when in 20 fed-games, the player used only in 2 or 3 times the sabre... it is a sign of balance problems... good balancing means, that every unit has a important role and you need a mixed troop or fleet, to survive.

posted on June 18th, 2011, 11:48 am

That's the point! When a unit will not be used so much, it is useless

no, thats not true, when a unit isnt used much that means people need to be more flexible. not all units can be used all the time.

good balancing means, that every unit has a important role and you need a mixed troop or fleet, to survive.

thats not true either, not all ships have important roles, they have roles. teutoburg has a less important role, most games dont involve turtling of the kind that would require the beast that is the teuto, it has a role, just not an important one.

the sabre has its role, just its not used every day. i think people could put a few in every fleet to add a bit of long range power that dodges torps. and in late game it is dirt cheap and dodges torps from expensive enemy torp firing ships, making their fire worth less.

posted on June 18th, 2011, 12:00 pm

I just talked about small and some other ships. It would only affect Intrepid, Monsoon and I think Nova. Not all. In the moment small mixed ranged fleets are not as usefull as a fleet with small shortranged ships. But I think they should be more usefull.
They do not need to get the weapons avoidence. Just something it would make it worth to bring sabers with them into play. I mostly build such fleets. And the only thing the saber is good for in such fleets is dieing. They are the first targetet (if in range), they are the first destroid and they are bringing the smallest damage with them. For nearly the cost of a monsoon. I can handle them, so that this is not such a big problem for me, but most won't do that.
Making they affecting other small ships is the only thing I can think off, that would make the saber "usefull" after getting Ints and Mons for the most players.
The problem is, the saber is the starting unit. That should be a unit that can be used all along the techtree as a unit that is giving something usefull to your fleet.
In the moment, the saber is not good after the first chasi but it will get more usefull when big torpships showing up. So I think there should be something to boost her in mid an early game to make it more usefull.

And yes, sabers are good against bomber spam. It is hard to get some kills with them, but thats not the problem. You just need to bring some bugs into play, which will work without any prototype and the sabers will get problems. Beams only miss against cover fire and a saber can't take that much damage, the bugs are cheaper and faster build and they do more damage. Against such a mixed fleet the monsoons are far better.

Did I said, I don't like one ship spam but mixed fleets
And I'm using sabers all the game. They are nice raiders and good maneged they can bost a fleet. But I see that they need something when Ints and Mons are buildable to use them in more then small numbers for soaking up torps and die.

[Nerd0001]

posted on June 18th, 2011, 12:20 pm

Last edited by Nerd0001 on June 18th, 2011, 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

@Myles: I agree with you, that every unit has its specific role. Perhaps we have a different view on balancing. In my opinion, the role of every unit is a part of a fleet. The fleet combines all specific properties/qualities of each unit, together - in a mixed view - they have to be powerful. Of course, an that's a harder discussion point , every unit can be used all time.

Back to Starcraft: The system of Starcraft is so awesome, because the roles of the units don't change over a match. With research, weaker units will be improved so they have a function in a later part of a game. If one unit doesn't have a function, or is not important it is a useless gimmick of game. In my opinion, useless gimmicks should be deleted out of the game (teutoburg?), because the filled the game with useless stuff. Or you have to give this unit an important role...

Otherwise: If you are not interested in a perfect balanced game (that should be the goal), you bring some nice units into the game, wonderful models without - or with less - functions so that the player thinks: Wow, great units! Eyecatcher... but without a meaning.

It's strange, that the sabre is a long ranged weapon ship... I think, it should have the role of little zergs... very fast, very cheap, little construction time, little shields/hit points, a very short range but strong weapon, and nice abilities of avoiding torpedos - which could be improved in later phases of the game by research. In late phases this unit will also be a strong and important unit and a nice counter ship for bigger and stronger ships (classic principle: Paper, Scissors, Stone ).

To force the player to build mixed fleets will automatically improve the importance of every unit. And that's the key of a perfect balanced RTS game!

posted on June 18th, 2011, 12:21 pm

I just talked about small and some other ships. It would only affect Intrepid, Monsoon and I think Nova. Not all.

thats nearly every early game ship, you would change the sabre from having a unique purpose to being something that you spam with every fleet.

And the only thing the saber is good for in such fleets is dieing.

they may die, but the enemy will waste expensive firepower on missing the sabre while not shooting your e2 (or akiras, or intreps etc).

And yes, sabers are good against bomber spam. It is hard to get some kills with them, but thats not the problem. You just need to bring some bugs into play, which will work without any prototype and the sabers will get problems. Beams only miss against cover fire and a saber can't take that much damage, the bugs are cheaper and faster build and they do more damage. Against such a mixed fleet the monsoons are far better.

a small number of bugs isnt gonna change the battle, they will need to switch from bomber to bug spam. bug spam hurts monsoons as well. by the time you have seen them go for bomber spam you will have engineering up, so you can tech to intreps if u lose all your sabres. but far easier is mix in canaverals (dont require engineering/chassis, so it doesnt matter if u sabre spammed from start) and use them to flatten the bugs. the bombers (and bugs) will still auto target the sabres, and the canaverals do great damage to bugs. and will get cover fire too. those bugs wont stand a chance. even if your micro is terrible and u somehow lose all your sabres, the canaverals will be almost invincible to bugs. and if the game lasts longer you have some support ships around to get specials for

And I'm using sabers all the game. They are nice raiders and good maneged they can bost a fleet. But I see that they need something when Ints and Mons are buildable to use them in more then small numbers for soaking up torps and die.

actually on this one i'd use mons for raiding, they are faster and have a passive which helps them raid and a special which is awesome at raiding too.

that "soaking up torps and die" is a good use for them. torps that are missing sabres arent doing any damage.

posted on June 18th, 2011, 12:28 pm

@Myles: I agree with you, that every unit has its specific role. Perhaps we have a different view on balancing. In my opinion, the role of every unit is a part of a fleet. The fleet combines all specific properties/qualities of each unit, together - in a mixed view - they have to be powerful. Of course, an that's a harder discussion point , every unit can be used all time.

fleetops is more focused on unique roles, rather than roles that apply all the time and every fleet should be roughly the same.

Back to Starcraft: The system of Starcraft is so awesome, because the roles of the units don't change over a match. With research, weaker units will be improved so they have a function in a later part of a game. If one unit doesn't have a function, or is not important it is a useless gimmick of game. In my opinion, useless gimmicks should be deleted out of the game (teutoburg?), because the filled the game with useless stuff. Or you have to give this unit an important role...

the teutoburg isnt a gimmick, if the enemy has turtled then the teuto will be your counter to that. against borg (or big ship spam) its handy too, if u are willing to sacrifice the torpy goodness of normal warpins against borg.

It's strange, that the sabre is a long ranged weapon ship... I think, it should have the role of little zergs... fast, cheap, little construction time, little shields/hit points, a very short range but strong weapon, and nice abilities of avoiding torpedos - which could be improved in later phases of the game by research. In late phases this unit will also be a strong and important unit and a nice counter ship for bigger and stronger ships (classic principle: Paper, Scissors, Stone ).

To force the player to build mixed fleets will automatically improve the importance of every unit. And that's the key of a perfect balanced RTS game!

correct me if im wrong (ive never played starcraft games) but didnt the zerg give name to the zerg rush which has become well known. and didnt zerg rush require repeated balancing changes because it was annoying? the bug used to be like this in fleetops, u could spam bugs so easily, thats why some counters were introduced. adai is one of the harshest passive in the game, it makes bug spam very risky these days as everyone has counters to it. same as the intrepid. but fleetops isnt about rock paper scissors hard counters. a person with good micro skills can outplay even if they are technically countered in this game. and that is intended. as hard counters are boring, i dont think hard counters make an rts "perfect" in any way. i think it makes them too predictable and boring.

sorry for double post.

posted on June 18th, 2011, 12:31 pm

ive never played starcraft games

What!?!? Shame on you! Play it and love it 

posted on June 18th, 2011, 12:54 pm

@Nerd
I have to disagree.
It is a nice idea, when a unit changes its role over the time. The Federation is not the Zerg and they should not be. And I dislike Starcraft and its balance and even some of the base gameplayideas of starcraft. I love the soft counters of fleetops.
Also the saber is good as a fast (with hyper impulse) long range ship and later on it becomes more usefull without any research. It weakness is the small damage and it can't take much damage. But the long range, 360° fiering arc and the speed are the strengs. And cover fire makes the saber even stronger.
But not in a mixed fleet.
But I have to agree, that Federation should be stronger with fleets mixed out of different ships. The Devs startet this allready I think. It has a unique role, but is sometimes laking in fleetcombat.

And the Teuteburg is not! useless. It is the only Artilleryship of the Federation and it can destroy any stationary defence (even a bunch of Starbases) without any harm for itself. And it still workes quite well against big ships (weapon disabling).


@Myles
In the moment I see no big unique purpose for the saber in the begining. Exept the enemy is going for torps.
Why not making it a ship, that is good at its own but even better in a mixed fleet.
And Saber would be useless with Akira or this Mason area damage thing (forgot the name at the moment).
Sabers that interact with small ships (maybee even with BoPs and Bugs and so on) would make the Saber a wellcome guest in every fleet. Not a spamming ship but a ship that can give the small advantage to win the battle in every well mixed fleet.
But why it is spamend then. If you have to make a fleet with many ships, that interact, then you won't spam any unit much more then the others.
And for a baselineship it would be not the worst idea to make it usefull in every fleet. I think thats somehow the way of the federation.

For Bugs and Bomberspam.
It just depends on the numbers. even 1/3 bugs and 2/3 bomber against 100% sabers will brake the dominance of the sabers against the bombers.
The carnavall is an option (that I use) but this is what I ment. The sabers and the carnavals interact and both are usefull in this mixed fleet (even if the carnavals are damn slow).
But mixing sabers with Ints and Mons will give you not realy much. So, if you going vor carn and saber it works. If you going for Mon an Int the saber is obsolent for some strategies. That is my problem.
I want the saber to be something more then just a toprsoaker. I think they should be a (maybe) small but still importend part to every Fed fleet at every time. But for some fleets they are not. And most of theese fleets are early and midgame.

As I said, I use them early and midgame but somehow they are laking of something that makes them worth to be a baseline ship.

posted on June 18th, 2011, 12:54 pm

What!?!? Shame on you! Play it and love it 

from what ive heard it favours hard counters, and from the replays ive watched i didnt really think it was any good. not my cup of tea. too much focus on actions per second and games end way too quickly.

posted on June 18th, 2011, 1:18 pm

@Myles
In the moment I see no big unique purpose for the saber in the begining. Exept the enemy is going for torps.

no big unique purpose, except for the one you just noted. so there is a big unique purpose

Why not making it a ship, that is good at its own but even better in a mixed fleet.

you already noted it works with canavs, it also helps out excel 1s.

And Saber would be useless with Akira or this Mason area damage thing (forgot the name at the moment).

actually a good way to beat akiras/intreps is with more torps, as the intrep/akira is medium sized. having sabres nearby will make those torps less useful. hence the sabre helps the akira/intrep out. i have no idea what you are talking about mayson area damage. maybe norway with coil?

And for a baselineship it would be not the worst idea to make it usefull in every fleet. I think thats somehow the way of the federation.

its definitely not the worst idea but its still one i think would be negative not positive. as it would mean the ship is something you nearly always build, a no brainer, and hence reduces variety. its purpose would be less unique.

For Bugs and Bomberspam.
It just depends on the numbers. even 1/3 bugs and 2/3 bomber against 100% sabers will brake the dominance of the sabers against the bombers.

thats not true, a small number of bugs isnt a force. and the bombers would be giving the serious damage. sabres are equal speed to bugs (when hyper impulse is on) so can escape with their lives. all the while shooting back from long range.

also bugs arent much cheaper than sabres when u consider the fact that all dominion ships cost less dil/tri and more supply.

But mixing sabers with Ints and Mons will give you not realy much. So, if you going vor carn and saber it works. If you going for Mon an Int the saber is obsolent for some strategies. That is my problem.

im happy with sabres and mons/ints not working together. sabres cant work with everything. like in real life, infrantry men provide cover fire for long range mortars or rpg guys (excels/canavs), not for other light infantry (mons/ints)

posted on June 18th, 2011, 1:39 pm

actually a good way to beat akiras/intreps is with more torps, as the intrep/akira is medium sized. having sabres nearby will make those torps less useful. hence the sabre helps the akira/intrep out. i have no idea what you are talking about mayson area damage. maybe norway with coil?

its definitely not the worst idea but its still one i think would be negative not positive. as it would mean the ship is something you nearly always build, a no brainer, and hence reduces variety. its purpose would be less unique.

thats not true, a small number of bugs isnt a force. and the bombers would be giving the serious damage. sabres are equal speed to bugs (when hyper impulse is on) so can escape with their lives. all the while shooting back from long range.

also bugs arent much cheaper than sabres when u consider the fact that all dominion ships cost less dil/tri and more supply.

im happy with sabres and mons/ints not working together. sabres cant work with everything. like in real life, infrantry men provide cover fire for long range mortars or rpg guys (excels/canavs), not for other light infantry (mons/ints)

1. I talked about, that sabers won't help much in an Akirafleet exept it could avoid torps (but if I see such a fleet I would concentrate my fire not on the sabers )
2.Yes, the Norway
3. Fleet composition would depend on the enemy fleets. Not one composition of all ships will beat every fleet. For the saber, depending on the enemy fleet it would be a larger or a small part of your fleet. Not only because of how much torps the enemy fields but althoug wich ones of your ships are more usefull against the enemy fleet an which one of them the sabers would boost.
If many fedships would trigger boost on each other sometimes it would be more usefull to have more mons in your fleet for example and sometimes more sabers while the backbone of your fleet are e2 and akiras. Just as an example. You won't completly ignore any ship because any of them could give you the small boost you need. But you would change your fleet composition everytime the enemy does.
4.When the Dom has a Supplymining on, Bugs are much cheaper .
In a fleet of bombers and bugs against sabers it is not the matter, that the bugs will kill the sabers but that the sabers are not anymore in the offensive but in the deffencive position. If you can force the sabers to retreat you won. Impossible with bombers alone. Very easy with some bugs arround.
5. Ever heard about some light inf man gave the other coveringfire . Even in one group.
Also, the saber would be more like the mortar giving coverfire to other mortars, artillerie and snipers at the moment but not to light inf, not to RPG (I would see Int and akira in this position) and not to tanks (Sovi for example). In reality all inf would give coverfire to all as mortas, ari an tanks would to depening on the position and the enemy forces.
I just like to see the mortar giving the light inf some support and not just the ari and other long range weapons. I didnt even talked about heavy inf, RPG or tanks .

posted on June 18th, 2011, 1:51 pm

1. thats my point, it helps. and any time you start battle the first volley will be auto target. any time u give a move order, your attack order gets forgotten, and auto target takes over. its not as easy as you think to keep manually targeting. thats why auto target tanks are so effective.

3. but u still have the sabre being a go to ship, being used for so many purposes, thats not what the devs say they are aiming for.

4. i dont get why u are saying this, obviously this is true (i even said it in my post), but supply mining isnt free, dominion ships cost more supply than dil/tri, that means bugs arent much cheaper than sabres. at the start u can rely on some of your initial stock, but bugs have adai and will burn through your initial supply incredibly quick.

5. you are mistaking what the cover fire analogy is. the sabre (infantry man) is getting the enemy to focus on it and the sabre is being defensive (ie running around cos infantry is quick), while the e1 (guy with mortar) isnt getting shot at and sets up his mortar to fire. thats the analogy. the sabre isnt the mortar, as the mortar is the one doing the damage and the sabre is covering the e1 by keeping fire away from it.

the sabre shouldnt be supporting other light ships, as they can run away themselves. its the heavy hitters like the e1 that shouldnt be getting shot at.

posted on June 18th, 2011, 2:30 pm

1. One ship dies fast under concentratet fire. And my first volley is manuelly targetet every time.
I think it is a matter of how you play.

3. Int, Mon an E2 are allready god to go ships. Not because they help other ships but because they can battle a wide range of ships effectively. They can be used everytime. What is the problem, that the saber changes its role later on to an god to go supportship that is usefull in every fleet. Not as a battleship and not just as a torptank.


4. Shure, Mining isn't free. But it gives you free supplies.
My point is just, in the first engagements sabers vs bombers and bugs or mon and int vs bomber and bugs when both have not much ships. The saber is just good if there are just bombers. But who is that stuipid  and sends just bombers. If you can force the sabers to retreat an repair, you can take ot the mining vor example. Then sabers are just effective with carnavalls as support, when both interact..
But if you mix them with the ints and mons the sabers are the unit you don't need to build in such a mixed fleet. And most people go to Mon/Int because Saber Carn is very limited.
The Carn is an supportship, for it this is ok. But the saber is a main battleship that loose its worth.
I can't explain it better.

5. I think we talked about different things

You are talking about running in an big pink bunnycostume over the battlefield to make the enemys see you and shoot at you. That is what the saber does without its special (could be a nice triggerd effect for the Sovi btw.).
The Enemy shoots at the saber because it is weak but because it is good digged in it can avoid the at-weapons (torps). That realy would be light inf. And somehow it is the role of the saber to be the light but long range inf.

I was talking about the special of the saber.
The saber does covering fire like a mortar or a fiering group. (Or light inf with granadelaunchers)
They shoot at an enemy to nail them down and force them to seek cover, that they are unable to fight back effectivly and won't hit anything if they fire back somehow. This is giving the oportunity to another (inf, ship, tank, whatever) to run an attack, that ist not possible unter normal conditions.
In the moment, the saber is giving this coverfire effect just to other longrangeunits (for me, Ari, mortar, maybee antitank if you looking at torpheavy ships) but not to other light infanterie wich could attack while another infgroup is giving covering or supporting fire (call it as you want).

Or could the Mon classified as a tank? Its hard to classifie the fleetopsships in classical categories because mostly they are a mix of all but sometimes more this and sometimes more that...

posted on June 18th, 2011, 2:49 pm

1. if you decloak by clicking attack you lose the entire first volley (it doesnt shoot til decloak is over) if u decloak by pushing decloak, then it auto targets.

otherwise just flying towards them, if u push attack, all sorts of stuff could happen, such as the entire fleet stops for a moment etc. most people engage by giving move orders until the fleets are close enough for attack orders to be executed immediately. hence when joining battle auto target takes over. and any future move orders will cancel your attack commands.

3. thats a silly argument: we already have ships that arent fully unique, so lets add to that

4. it doesnt give you free supplies, you paid for miners and station, hence not free. there is nothing free about supplies in this game.

if there is a repair yard at the expansion (usual if u dont sabre spam from start) then you can repair sabres there.

ive already explained how you can stop bugs using canavs.

5. no you are confusing supression fire with covering.

suppression fire: shooting towards enemy to cause them to duck

covering something: making the enemy not focus on that something.

the sabre does the latter, it makes the enemy not focus on your e1/canavs so they can attack from long range without getting shot at.

this is about the sabre with the special, the distraction is reflected in game by the inability to hit the cover fired ships. sabres also cause cover fire on other sabres btw.

the sabre with or without its special is about having the enemy waste auto target torps on your sabre, which i never used an analogy for.

fleetops has no easy analogy for suppression fire, as 1 hit from a common weapon doesnt kill. 1 bullet kills, 1 phaser shot doesnt. also ships dont take cover in space.

the monsoon is called a tank in rts slang. thats not like a real tank completely, as real tanks place importance on weapons power. the mon is a tank because it can be used to absorb enemy fire and still survive. such as e2s, they will auto target mons instead of intreps. hence you can use about 3 mons to support 7 intreps to beat e2s. as the mons will get the fire first.

posted on June 18th, 2011, 9:14 pm

@ Myles

That was hardly provocative language.....