Fed vs. Fed warpin rush

posted on July 22nd, 2010, 9:00 pm

and neb you should have cancelled building of sfc and remade it with other con ship later.

It had less than a minute left when they arrived and when my constructor hit half health and I realized it would take five seconds longer to finish I immediately tried to click cancel but it didnt get in time.

If a warpin comes so early and you hav not build your own defense, then its critical. Its just how it is. You play against fed and you are fed. I think you know best the advantages and disadvantages. I think its a valid strategy. If YOU are fed and fight against fed, make a run to the SFC. Then get your hands on some Akiras and play the game.

Building stations and clicking buttons may not be very hard to do, but they do the same job as ships. You plan them, build them and get something out of it.

So you're saying that I should do the same thing as my enemy and somehow hope that I just happen to get it faster. That reminds me of one of the anti-Bug spam strats as puretech, to spam Bugs faster than the enemy. But even then sfc is worse, as with Bugs it's all about microing them better and the enemy bugs wont destroy your yard before it finishes building.

Sounds like a little luck was involved.  Had that been a less practical warp-in like a pair of excelsiors, would the result have been the same?  Or a pair of steamrunners?  Steamrunners would have been able to paste a mining facitlity or two but the intrepids might have been able to take them out relatively fast, leaving funny with no mining and no other ships while you already had at least a semblance of an economy going.

Seems like it was a big risk (well executed) that ended up panning out.  Perhaps warp-in really is a bit overpowered but I don't see that same situation repeating itself every time this strategy is attempted.

The chances of getting Steamrunners were reduced in 3.1.3, 20% for two of the warpin positions. Even if he had gotten Steamrunners, he could've killed my Constructor easily. Excelsiors might be less powerful, but he still likely would've taken out the constructor. Even if two excelsiors would've allowed me time to get SFC up, there's still a problem when a strat works so perfectly except a chance (24% for double Excel) of failure.

posted on July 22nd, 2010, 9:12 pm

No...amount...of turrets?

Have you seen what Mayson's cheap-ass pulse turret does to ships?  Drop one or two of those in a good location, and later on back them up with a phaser and/or quantum turret and you've made a very, very nasty knot that your opponent won't want to deal with.

posted on July 22nd, 2010, 9:16 pm

even mayson turrets, if u are going fast sfc and enemy is going fast sfc you wont have money for many turrets.

[Nebula_Class_Ftw]

posted on July 22nd, 2010, 9:35 pm

Last edited by Nebula_Class_Ftw on July 22nd, 2010, 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

No...amount...of turrets?

Have you seen what Mayson's cheap-ass pulse turret does to ships?  Drop one or two of those in a good location, and later on back them up with a phaser and/or quantum turret and you've made a very, very nasty knot that your opponent won't want to deal with.

Pulses to kill an Ambasssador? That won't work very well.

Pulse turret is medium ranged, so I'd have to build it right next to SFC, leaving my mining quite undefended. It also takes a while to build a platform, and ties up that constructor.
He was exaggerating that no amount at all would do it, but no amount of turrets that I could have possibly built in that window of time would do it (I barely had the Res for one turret, let alone two.) The reason I had enuff res for a turret, SFC, and Intrepids was that I was Risner, who gets a cost reduction on Chassis 1. As Mayson I would have had to wait longer for the res for a turret.
You cannot get quantum torpedo turrets before Eraudi yard.

posted on July 22nd, 2010, 10:08 pm

Good grief. So you tried to tech up to SFC as well and lost, and you are annoyed that somebody got it faster? Sounds like a failure of strategy, not game balancing to me.

posted on July 22nd, 2010, 10:15 pm

Instead of investing in the SFS and SFC yourself, what if you had gone for a second shipyard instead and cranked out some more intrepids?  That may have been enough to counter most warp-ins, or at least deny such a juicy target as a constructor building an SFC.  Just throwing some stuff out there.  I am still relatively new, so I am still learning the balance of things.

posted on July 22nd, 2010, 10:46 pm

I had second yard tried against me a bit earlier, it does seem to work okay but the warpins have enuff strength to take out miners with ease. The moons on that map were so far away and enemy SFC came up so fast that it's quite likely I would've had to give up on a second mining platform to get repair yard at expansion, I'm not sure if the constructor would've survived long enuff.

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 1:13 am

I have a simple solution: lets make the first warp in deployable only near the sfc (i dont know if that can be programmed in the game or not) , that will completely stop the annoying double, and triple warp in phaenomena.....  all other warp in after the first one, will work just like now.

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 1:59 am

I think we need to remove all the ships.  That would solve it.

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 5:30 am

I think we need to remove all the ships.  That would solve it.

I like this idea.


  However, since it's good to have multiple ideas out there ----

If he got his warpin to actually DESTROY your builder as it was building SFC, then maybe you should have realized that he could put his down sooner and gone double yards instead of slow-rush teching to SFC yourself?

  2 yards would mean more Monsoons/Intrepids .

  If you see that your opponent's warpin is gonna be ready far enough ahead of yours to actually destroy your builder, then cancel it and get more ships up! 

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 8:50 am

  2 yards would mean more Monsoons/Intrepids .

  If you see that your opponent's warpin is gonna be ready far enough ahead of yours to actually destroy your builder, then cancel it and get more ships up!   :)

how do you double yard without running out of resources making one shipyard half till other ship is halfway in production??

i think warpin should be only warped to SFC itself, like what the AI does through out the entire game, cuz i mean the station is sending the distress call not an empty point of space.

[Elim]

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 9:49 am

Last edited by Elim on July 23rd, 2010, 10:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

I've tried the double yard thing multiple times aginst the clock (with a lot of different build orders) . If you goes straight for warp in (not ignoring mining) you can have warp in ~4:30 and two intrepids (at game speed 4). If you build two yards(without the sfc) you can have 3 intrepids or monsoons (or mixed whatever). Yes you can have the second yard at your forward exp at this time (~4:30 after game start at game speed 4), but this is still 5v3. (and no, you wont have the money for a phaser turret)

So about this time a warp in making fed player can have 5 ships (3 of them anywhere in the map), with economy running. Also interesting to experiment, what can you do with other races during the same time, i have tried it too (these are only some of the basic online tactics) :
Borg: scube/probe rush running with 2 scubes/1 probe (second probe is about 60% finished)
Klingon:  3 ships if you do k'beajqs and kvorts mixed (i didnt tried brels, but im sure they are not the best aginst feds)
dominion(puretech): 7 bugs with 2 yards (the second can be at the exp, if you make ships that need prototypes, you will be much slower)
Romulan: MUHAHAH doesent even worth to try.....  (about 3 ships rhienns or lehvals or mixed (i dont think puny shrikes or expensive griffins will work aginst feds), its sure if you goes for generix you will have only ONE of them and the second  half finished, same goes to warbirds 1 finished the second about 40%

Im sure, im not the most qualified to do this kind of maths or experiments (maybe Mal would do much better), but I suggest all who thinks warp in is not a decisive advantage now, try to play aginst the clock as feds, than as other races or feds without warp in, and see what you can pump out at the same amount of time in the early game (or if you are not a nerd without life, try to play 1v1 online aginst good fed players for example: Nebula, Halfala....)

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 10:05 am

actually levals are good against feds.

intreps have adai and die.

monsoons are strong vs long range, a bit weak against short range levals.

excels have adai...

galaxy and neb are medium range, leval has SSEC

ambas has hdsg, strong vs long, slightly weak vs short.

levals really are good against feds.

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 10:34 am

Ok, you are right, just tried it, you can have two phase plated rhienn, and two auto repair lehval aginst the first warp in(and monsoon/intrepid combo) , that should work. (you are probably still in a defensive position, but in a good one)

Any suggestion to for the other races?  (I promise, I will stop "whining" about warp in, if a suitable strategy will be avalible to all other races)

posted on July 23rd, 2010, 10:46 am

if u ignore the rhienns u can get another leaval, and maybe (im not sure) get advanced energy reeling too.

you should be in a great position, if they send their warpin to you then u will have full numbers and repair nearby. u should use normal weapons on the faster warpins, then use meta dis on the fast intrepids/monsoons to stop them escaping if possible. at the total minimum any excels that warpin should die painfully.

you should then go use your cloak to strike their mining before the next warpin arrives. you should get 1 or 2 miners if quick. by the time the second warpin arrives you should have retreated again and regenerated your energy to defend against it.

for other races its harder but not impossible. the most likely warpin location is undefended mining.

if you are klinks send your first ship or two out to harass their mining. you probably wont get kills, but at least you may make them do their warpin defensively. i nearly always do my first couple warpins defensively, i dont like rushing in to enemy mining, plus it supports my ships that are there.

after a defensive warpin u have a chance to get another ship out and have your scout watch their warpin.

klinks can do fast hwp, to scare them off, but it will leave you with fewer ships. and on some maps they will go after undefended main mining (duel is an example of this).

borg have few choices, just follow their normal strats, you should hopefully be able to force them to retreat, with luck, you should get a kill. as always excels are doomed. having a dode is a good thing, as its support status will hurt intreps and excels.

i dont know much about the dominion, they are my weakest race. if going for pure bugs, then use damaged bugs to ram a retreating intrep to stop it getting away.