Borg chassis cost in new structure

[Anonymous]

posted on May 22nd, 2009, 4:09 am

Last edited by Anonymous on May 22nd, 2009, 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

you can have suggestions. you can have turrets at the mines and around ur base to compensate for the time. You can even concoct abstract orders and guides.
u can try a "different" approach. but in the end that will not help against a fed or kling rush. nor a dominion rush. nor will it even compensate in the game for sheer lack of time and resources.

Reason: the borg are gaining nothing in exchange for this ludicrous price increase - no bonus, no firepower - nada. they are essentially the same borg of 3.05 @ 3 times the cost. nothing else,
now use this even smaller fleet against the old fed canaveral akira and warp in counter. that still stands as the feds are still as usual.

At this point we have the same old game borg with new costs. deriving unusual approaches is ok once more in abstract theory. but take a borg player and a dom or kling player of equal strnght and the dom/kling will come out on top now.

Yes: if the borg ships got an increase in strenght, or even resistance fair enough. But nothing accorded to them at this point can compensate - truly compensate - for the increased costs to this level.

of course we have ideas, we see certain ships still buildable at the outset, etc....

But if ure going to tell me that the borg should now spam probes and build turrets and maintain a scanty fleet, cos each ship is now 3 times what it was, no guide or "alternative approach" is going to compensate... no matter what u try.

in the end you will not have the ships to get into the fray.... even if u try to wait to get up to a cube in what u believe to be the opponent's mid game.

in any case, the klings are workable now, as are the dominion.

posted on May 22nd, 2009, 4:21 am

Hi everyone- long time fan of the mod (since about beta 2), but have been content to see it get more and more awesome.  But I digress....

I've only played one map with the Borg, another player Fed ally, and 2 Med AIs, and I haven't noticed the kind of cost problems everyone else seems to be experiencing.  I'm not saying the Borg aren't pricey, but  the only real gap in resources available vs what I was building was late-game and was that the Collective Connections wasn't keeping up with my needs.  I also didn't notice much of a speed increase in the Connection regeneration rate for the 4th & 5th upgrades, but those were done on the fly in the middle of battles.

One other thing is that I tend to use the 10 minute cease fire option in the games I play or run, not sure how commonly that's used.

So far I love the additions I seen with 3.06 and can't wait to see more!!!!!

posted on May 22nd, 2009, 4:58 am

actually, played one game using optimize online now. did surprisingly well against doms.
not going to be jubilant at this point. but let's see. im keeping an open mind. 

we will adapt 

posted on May 22nd, 2009, 5:03 am

BTW I let you win on purpose.


































Just Kidding!  Ha! Got ya! 

posted on May 22nd, 2009, 8:23 am

In the borgs defense, i was able to build a single cube in a game versus a medium dominion ai and it alone was obliterating ship after ship -- cruisers, destroyers, battleships, you name it...  Its hull rareley dropped below maybe 95 percent, despite engaging up to 10 ships at a time! basically i was using devastating attack and the high energy slicer to kill the shields and some hull on any battleships that came my way, occasionally icking off destroyers or heavily damaging cruisers with a well placed slicer. i saw it regenerating it's health fairly fast, about 1 percent every 2 or so seconds (under light fire)

posted on May 22nd, 2009, 3:17 pm

in all fairness tho, this will not happen in MP. players usually rush u in about 5-10 mins....

medium AI does not attack that well....

posted on May 22nd, 2009, 5:02 pm

If you're willing to cripple your money, you can hold off on the Transmission Matrix, and build yourself a Sphere or Assimilator right after you build the Conduction Matrix, and use it to defend against immediate rush.

posted on May 22nd, 2009, 5:46 pm

been there done that.

the point is - i am crippling my money. none of the other races are at the same time... so more than just defend a rush, i have to maintain pressure. this may be tenable vs the dom, the rom, the kling, but a canaveral with sensor bkacout over 25 secs, is what i still have to check.

As i said, I've made peace with this new implementation. No point beating a dead horse.

actually, played one game using optimize online now. did surprisingly well against doms.
not going to be jubilant at this point. but let's see. im keeping an open mind. 

we will adapt 

posted on May 22nd, 2009, 6:02 pm

What are peoples opinion on the Optimize Avatar?

I think, personally, that the recycling center could use a buff. Other thn that I really like the increase in usefulness with the chassis reduction.

posted on May 22nd, 2009, 7:44 pm

Well i could live with the new resource costs for the ships (borg ships are powerful and very resilient), but whats killing the speed in later game are the collective connections. Their regeneration speed is far too slow!
I am not able to build diamonds as fast a i would need them to stop the blows of one hard AI effectively. In 3.0.5, building a diamond fleet was (with 4 resource moons each) a relatively speedy thing. Not as fast as other players are producing their big ships, but the diamonds are stronger than most others, so it was allright. At the moment this isnt possible because of the collective connections.

Of course, with the new system, the borg are able to build bigger ships in the earlier game, but due to the lack of collective connections during the whole game, you wont see many big ones in the beginning. So this advantage is nearly useless. Please think about that! 

posted on May 22nd, 2009, 7:46 pm

exactly 

Well i could live with the new resource costs for the ships (borg ships are powerful and very resilient), but whats killing the speed in later game are the collective connections. Their regeneration speed is far too slow!
I am not able to build diamonds as fast a i would need them to stop the blows of one hard AI effectively. In 3.0.5, building a diamond fleet was (with 4 resource moons each) a relatively speedy thing. Not as fast as other players are producing their big ships, but the diamonds are stronger than most others, so it was allright. At the moment this isnt possible because of the collective connections.

Of course, with the new system, the borg are able to build bigger ships in the earlier game, but due to the lack of collective connections during the whole game, you wont see many big ones in the beginning. So this advantage is nearly useless. Please think about that! 

posted on May 22nd, 2009, 7:52 pm

First suggestion.  Forget the Diamonds.  They are a support vessel.  Don't make a fleet of them, don't rely on them to break an attack.  Give them their 'Bring Order to Chaos' ability, and a regeneration or Holding module (both increase Special Weapon Energy, Regen gives more survivability) and use them to support Spheres and Assimilators.  Their ability to increase damage 100% upon multi-targetting Spheres with 3 beam and 1 regen modules can make a fleet fall rapidly.  And the spheres are cheaper.  One diamond supporting 3-5 spheres usually works well, and is far, far, far cheaper on the connections than 4-6 diamonds.

posted on May 22nd, 2009, 8:08 pm

What are peoples opinion on the Optimize Avatar?

I think, personally, that the recycling center could use a buff. Other thn that I really like the increase in usefulness with the chassis reduction.

at this point, IMO the assimiate avatar has a better opening than optimize.... slightly better. the increased assim defense with lower connection costs give u a decent beginning.
a bit delayed. but nothing too different from the old assimilate avatar - aside from the resource crunch a little later should the other guy try to bomber spam u. however, such are the dogs of war .

By opening I do not mean rush, i mean standard build sequence to counter both a rush as well a game of attrition.

Optimize on the other hand has taken a slight turn. The older approach of trying to tech up and then pumping out a few scubes will not work here, as the new resource requirements will make the scubes and tech together a bit of a stretch (time and resources collected vs enemy production in the same time).
The chassis bonus of 30% is negated due to the collective connections requirements. so you end up with focusing on one expensive ship, probe spam like we used to do in A1 with the interceptor, or a mix of scubes and turrets to purely repel mining attacks, until you have enough reserves to build ur higher class ships.

this is a bit of a headache to manage, but it is fine. A little different but workable.

The only issue I saw, is that beam specific weapons from the borg are a bit weak. so when u have a sphere for example, and send it against a flotilla of 10 A-20s you will see that even the A-20s bring ur sphere down to 34 health while you have only destroyed 3.
Reason:
torps from the sphere from what ive seen, hit the A-20s 4 times after about 20 volleys.
Beams that do hit them are dreadfully weak - reduce shield strength  by about 4-5 per hit.
so cumulative damage inflicted by the sphere does tend to fizzle.

Other than that, it should be fine. Play around with different combinations and build orders. You'll find it to be workable.

[Anonymous]

posted on May 22nd, 2009, 8:14 pm

Last edited by Anonymous on May 22nd, 2009, 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

First suggestion.  Forget the Diamonds.  They are a support vessel.  Don't make a fleet of them, don't rely on them to break an attack.  Give them their 'Bring Order to Chaos' ability, and a regeneration or Holding module (both increase Special Weapon Energy, Regen gives more survivability) and use them to support Spheres and Assimilators.  Their ability to increase damage 100% upon multi-targetting Spheres with 3 beam and 1 regen modules can make a fleet fall rapidly.  And the spheres are cheaper.  One diamond supporting 3-5 spheres usually works well, and is far, far, far cheaper on the connections than 4-6 diamonds.

I dont believe the collective connections issue he mentioned was related to ur example. as clearly 3-4 spheres and 1 diamond are a  bit mid to late-mid game with the current resource reqs.

the initial discussion was that we are able to create the higher classes earlier, hence higher costs were added, as clearly nothing has been done to increase borg stats or regen rates.

What was said above was that the idea that u can build higher classes earlier as a reason for higher cost is a moot point, as the collective connections already preclude the possibility of building a higher class earlier.

but yeah - what ure saying is accurate. differnt combos will be needed at this point; however borg gameplay is still stodgy.

along the lines of why Risner and the Klings were missing something to be complete. not broken - nothing that melodramatic.

At this level, adaptation will make the borg complete - with these current resource requirements. heck increase them some more, if my borgies can adapt.

posted on May 22nd, 2009, 8:25 pm

What are peoples opinion on the Optimize Avatar?

I think, personally, that the recycling center could use a buff. Other thn that I really like the increase in usefulness with the chassis reduction.

I tend to use the Optimize Avatar myself.  The upgradable Incubation Center is really quite useful.  I do think that the Recycling Center could use a new option as well.  Maybe add a option for it to produce Collective Connections like it can produce Dilithium and Tritanium....