Anti Allaising Problems

posted on May 3rd, 2009, 8:22 pm

The usual FSAA smoothes edges of 3D objects, not textures.

MIP mapping and trilinear filtering can do that and were, after all, invented to do that.

Also, transparency anti-aliasing (called adaptive anti-aliasing by ATI) can smooth the edges of transparent texture areas.

Now it's up to the FO team to tell us whether the Armada II engine is capable of using MIP mapping and all kinds of texture filtering and if they're planning to implement this in FO.

We have to wait for an answer, as I don't know what's possible with the Armada II engine.

Textures are what is basically “wrapped” around an object (or frame wire model).  The texture is what you see from the appearance of the object.  An “in game” object consists of a texture wrapped around a wire frame model.  FSAA should be able to smooth out those edges, as is does already when we use a close up view of the object.  

Trilinear filtering has been improved to Anistropic Filtering, which is supposed to smooth out an objects motion or movement blur and allasing from motion.  Adaptive Antiallasing does this to a degree further.  You are correct with this assumption, as this should work for Mip maps, Bump Maps and Normal Maps.  “Maps” is the process in which the texture is applied to the model, and how it is operated (animated, 3D, ect.) in game (normal mapping is far better than anything else currently out there now.  Most DX10 games are Normal Mapped).  

I have been in the gaming industry for some time now.  Although my specialty is not graphics, I have a good working knowledge of how it works.  I am just wondering what is going on with the AA at a distance on the models, and if it can be addressed.

posted on May 3rd, 2009, 10:30 pm

When you are using a Nvidia card, the AA modes with super sampling look very fine. Even 8xS smoothes the image enough.

posted on May 3rd, 2009, 11:11 pm

When you are using a Nvidia card, the AA modes with super sampling look very fine. Even 8xS smoothes the image enough.

Hmmm,

Ok, then this problem might be related to ATI cards. 

When adjusting or writing the graphics code for GFX cards to interpret, it is possible that the flags for the ATI AA and AF may be over looked or not processed through the card.  That then should be able to be fixed by the FO team.  They simply need to allow for the GFX code to be recognized by the type of GFX card used.  I am not sure that is the problem, but it might be.  Since the AA works on the original Armada 2 at any angle / distance from the model, then FO should also work in the same manner unless the FO team only used the model extension code for Nvidia cards only.  I don’t see them doing that on purpose, but they may have over looked it when writing their GFX extensions.  Just need a dev to confirm or correct this statement and amend the issue.  Here’s hopping that the 3.0.6 get’s this fixed!!!

[Lt.Cdr.White]

posted on May 3rd, 2009, 11:41 pm

Last edited by Lt.Cdr.White on May 3rd, 2009, 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Textures are what is basically “wrapped” around an object (or frame wire model).  The texture is what you see from the appearance of the object.  An “in game” object consists of a texture wrapped around a wire frame model.  FSAA should be able to smooth out those edges, as is does already when we use a close up view of the object.  

Trilinear filtering has been improved to Anistropic Filtering, which is supposed to smooth out an objects motion or movement blur and allasing from motion.  Adaptive Antiallasing does this to a degree further.  You are correct with this assumption, as this should work for Mip maps, Bump Maps and Normal Maps.  “Maps” is the process in which the texture is applied to the model, and how it is operated (animated, 3D, ect.) in game (normal mapping is far better than anything else currently out there now.  Most DX10 games are Normal Mapped).  

I have been in the gaming industry for some time now.  Although my specialty is not graphics, I have a good working knowledge of how it works.  I am just wondering what is going on with the AA at a distance on the models, and if it can be addressed.

Look, you should read some more on AF, as AF has nothing to do with movement (perhaps you notice missing AF easier in movement, but that's it).

AF improves display of textures in distances and when observed at low angles.

Tri-linear filtering in connection with AF smoothes the areas where one MIP map resolution is exchanged to another. Without TF, you would see edges between the different MIP map resolutions.

MIP maps are sets of different resolutions of textures. The idea is that at long distances, the textures have more information than can be displayed. This leads to texture aliasing, meaning a kind of jagginess and flimmering because the pixel of the texture chosen to display may vary.

Using a lower resolution of the texture that has been prefiltered means this aliasing is reduced as there is (in ideal cases) exactly or less information in the texture that has to be displayed.

TF makes the sudden changing of resolution less obvious by blending between 2 texture resolutions.

Bilinear filtering however is used when small textures are displayed larger and thus smoothes the pixels, it's about the thing photo editing tools simply call "anti-alias".

FSAA however is edge anti-aliasing and smoothes only edges of 3D objects, no matter what kind of texture is applied.

The problem we're facing in FO is that FSAA works fine and smoothes edges at any viewing distance.

It's just that the textures in FO are really high quality and have lots of details. When zoomed out, not the edges of the objects get jaggy, it's texture aliasing, as the correct filters / mip mapping are not applied.

If the FO team for example only did the one high-res resolution texture and no MIP maps (or if Armada II doesn't support MIP mapping), this would be the reason why everything looks fine close up and bad far out.

Usually, GFX cards aren't even able to lose FSAA just by zooming in and out ingame. Either FSAA is on or off, it doesn't switch between those states without reason in the middle of a game except if you change the graphics options.


PS: All these methods were already available well before people even thought about things like motion blur calculation done by consumer graphics cards...

Also, if you'll ask your co-workers who are indeed specialized in graphics, they will probably tell you similar things.

posted on May 4th, 2009, 3:48 am

Which has nothing to do with it.

Bump mapping is simulation of a structured surface through a additional heightmap texture which then is calculated by the graphics card.

Bump mapping - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

O ok well idk i guess i just saw those files and just though they were the same. 

posted on May 4th, 2009, 9:40 am

Look, you should read some more on AF, as AF has nothing to do with movement (perhaps you notice missing AF easier in movement, but that's it).

AF improves display of textures in distances and when observed at low angles.

Tri-linear filtering in connection with AF smoothes the areas where one MIP map resolution is exchanged to another. Without TF, you would see edges between the different MIP map resolutions.

MIP maps are sets of different resolutions of textures. The idea is that at long distances, the textures have more information than can be displayed. This leads to texture aliasing, meaning a kind of jagginess and flimmering because the pixel of the texture chosen to display may vary.

Using a lower resolution of the texture that has been prefiltered means this aliasing is reduced as there is (in ideal cases) exactly or less information in the texture that has to be displayed.

TF makes the sudden changing of resolution less obvious by blending between 2 texture resolutions.

Bilinear filtering however is used when small textures are displayed larger and thus smoothes the pixels, it's about the thing photo editing tools simply call "anti-alias".

FSAA however is edge anti-aliasing and smoothes only edges of 3D objects, no matter what kind of texture is applied.

The problem we're facing in FO is that FSAA works fine and smoothes edges at any viewing distance.

It's just that the textures in FO are really high quality and have lots of details. When zoomed out, not the edges of the objects get jaggy, it's texture aliasing, as the correct filters / mip mapping are not applied.

If the FO team for example only did the one high-res resolution texture and no MIP maps (or if Armada II doesn't support MIP mapping), this would be the reason why everything looks fine close up and bad far out.

Usually, GFX cards aren't even able to lose FSAA just by zooming in and out ingame. Either FSAA is on or off, it doesn't switch between those states without reason in the middle of a game except if you change the graphics options.


PS: All these methods were already available well before people even thought about things like motion blur calculation done by consumer graphics cards...

Also, if you'll ask your co-workers who are indeed specialized in graphics, they will probably tell you similar things.

Yes, that is a better definition than mine I would say.  However, it is AF that smooth out the blur at any angle and distance.  Motion blur and alaising effects are also handled by AF.  So saying that AA is working at close range, and I would tend to agree.  AA and / or AF is not working at maximum distance from the model.  That is what I have tried to say and that is the problem with FO currently. 

A previous poster said that Nvidia cards run fine, with AA and AF working perfectly at a distance.  This leads me to believe that the FO team may need to re-set or introduce flags that allow ATI cards to interprit those flags so the AA and AF work properly for ATI cards. 

Graphic instructions are not all the same for all GFX cards.  ATI may be very similar but could look for more specific instruction before the card actually processes the graphics the way it should be.  Granted, most GFX instructions must be, and is a part of the DX engine of windows, but subtle instruction, like AA and AF, can be miss interpreted.  There are also stupid profiles now that superceed any manual settings in you GFX cards control panel.  Profiles are the worst thing to come along since chicken pox!  Who ever came up with that idea should be shot out right!  Profiles will prevent you from adjusting IQ in most / all games.  They truly suck!!!  All I really want to know is can the FO team fix this, or is it locked and there is no way to code or re-do the GFX instruction to allow ATI, or any GFX card to use AA and AF to there fullest extent?  That is the question that I am asking.

posted on May 28th, 2009, 6:41 am

Yeah yeah yeahso is there a Workaround? On my PC everytime i activate AA (no matte x2 x4 or x6) my whole ingame screen is flimmering black exetp a square around the mousepointer.

i have upgrade my ATi Software and DIsplay Driver (Radeon x1900).
Without AA all is fine but looks crapy.

posted on May 28th, 2009, 7:50 am

Same here...

[runaway]

posted on May 28th, 2009, 1:02 pm

Last edited by runaway on May 28th, 2009, 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

just tested the game with and without AA (8x) ingame settings.

works fine in both ways
I use a HD4850

Edit: tested it also with Catalyst Settings fixed to 8x AA, works too.

Attachments

posted on May 29th, 2009, 4:42 am

A compressed image format like JPG is never a good idea to compare image quality.

There is currently only one way to get rid of shimmering, high frequency textures: super sampling. But only Nvidia cards are supporting this.

posted on May 29th, 2009, 7:51 am

Yeah with a Radeon 4850.....
My Graphic Card has no Option for AA x8 and it did not work neither ingame or Catalyst or together.

I dont think i will buy a Ati Card again. Too much problems with Games

posted on May 29th, 2009, 5:24 pm

OK I just tested an its working perfectly.....in the Window mode with x6 AA

In Fullscreenmode it do not work with AA

Any suggestions?

posted on May 29th, 2009, 10:03 pm

I can only offer despair, so no

posted on May 30th, 2009, 12:52 am

I have an ATI 3870, so once I can actually run the game I will take a look at this issue.  ATI better implements DirectX then NVidia, thought NVidia is better at OGL then ATI, since A2 is DX8 then ATI should do better at it, but I will take a look when I can finally run the game.

posted on May 31st, 2009, 6:53 pm

I thougth it was my second attached Display but it still work only in Windowmode.
-------------------------------snivel thread open------------------------

@someonefromtheStaff: Is it a known Problem with ATI Graphiccards?
Is there a way to get to run it in Fullscrrenmode with AA?

           

-------------------------------snivel thread closed------------------------