One way to counter Breen Cruiser Spam as Romulan
1, 2
posted on November 20th, 2009, 9:22 am
Oh noes! Someone playing as Dominion is noob spamming breen cruisers and I'm Romulan! How do I stop it!!!!!??? >:( >:( >:( 
I've heard tell of some guy who took the time to say something about balanced dominion fleets, and if you follow the confident smiley, he'll show you the way. B) But there are some who like to spam from one yard, turtling with turrets and breen cruiser spam, and who only build breen cruisers. While this should be easily counterable, because it takes quite a while to produce the prototype, several people have asked me how this might be counterable, specifically as romulans.
So here is one way out of many that will work for Helev, just in case rhienns aren't working for some reason. Enter the generix spectre refit. It is a battleship you can get out early, and remember that the breen torpedos do less damage to battleships.
Here's the base damage of breen cruisers: 8.18. That's per torpedo, and there's 5 in a volley. A Soveriegn takes 6.544 per torpedo. A spectre/dreadnaught takes 4.908...and has a 20% chance to miss because it's a medium battleship! So it ends up being 3.926 damage per torpedo. Less than half! Plus they get the cool special that lets you keep your shields up while you cloak. So you should be able to decloak right in the middle of a breen cruiser fleet and destroy it. And they're roughly the same cost, accounting for the Dominion's unique pricing.
My recommended build order if you know your opponent is doing breen cruiser spam is research institute first, then shipyard at the same time, then go back and do mining second. That way you can make 1 griffin, while one constructor does mining and the other makes a talshiar facility. Then send the griffin to attack his expansion constructors. Keep him from expanding, and run before the cruisers get there. Once you've built up 5-6 spectres yourself, track where the breen cruisers are and if they leave your opponent's base you can attack on top of him.
This way you can attack him, and when a ship gets red you can cloak it with the shields up.
Just remember to always stay on top of your opponent and follow him. Both ships are the same speed. Also, they have about the same build times, but by only taking half damage and having a far more powerful ship stat wise, you will win. 
Breen cruiser is 23/20/10, Helev Spectre is 26/29/12.
So next time you're having trouble with breen cruiser spam and everything else isn't working, this should. The patch is pretty close, so it won't be as big of a deal, but for now, here's one counter that should help. Happy gaming.
I've heard tell of some guy who took the time to say something about balanced dominion fleets, and if you follow the confident smiley, he'll show you the way. B) But there are some who like to spam from one yard, turtling with turrets and breen cruiser spam, and who only build breen cruisers. While this should be easily counterable, because it takes quite a while to produce the prototype, several people have asked me how this might be counterable, specifically as romulans.
So here is one way out of many that will work for Helev, just in case rhienns aren't working for some reason. Enter the generix spectre refit. It is a battleship you can get out early, and remember that the breen torpedos do less damage to battleships.
Here's the base damage of breen cruisers: 8.18. That's per torpedo, and there's 5 in a volley. A Soveriegn takes 6.544 per torpedo. A spectre/dreadnaught takes 4.908...and has a 20% chance to miss because it's a medium battleship! So it ends up being 3.926 damage per torpedo. Less than half! Plus they get the cool special that lets you keep your shields up while you cloak. So you should be able to decloak right in the middle of a breen cruiser fleet and destroy it. And they're roughly the same cost, accounting for the Dominion's unique pricing.
My recommended build order if you know your opponent is doing breen cruiser spam is research institute first, then shipyard at the same time, then go back and do mining second. That way you can make 1 griffin, while one constructor does mining and the other makes a talshiar facility. Then send the griffin to attack his expansion constructors. Keep him from expanding, and run before the cruisers get there. Once you've built up 5-6 spectres yourself, track where the breen cruisers are and if they leave your opponent's base you can attack on top of him.
This way you can attack him, and when a ship gets red you can cloak it with the shields up.
Just remember to always stay on top of your opponent and follow him. Both ships are the same speed. Also, they have about the same build times, but by only taking half damage and having a far more powerful ship stat wise, you will win. Breen cruiser is 23/20/10, Helev Spectre is 26/29/12.
So next time you're having trouble with breen cruiser spam and everything else isn't working, this should. The patch is pretty close, so it won't be as big of a deal, but for now, here's one counter that should help. Happy gaming.
posted on November 20th, 2009, 1:01 pm
Here is how you do it.... have sensor arrays equipped with detection grids make a perimeter around your bases. Have 4 turrets constructed around it (1 per side). Make sure that the sensor ranges overlap to avoid sneak throughs. And where ever you find his fleet, intercept it with an upgraded talon to provide sensor support.
And usually this can hold them off before bigger ships wipe out your perimeter, so it is wise to keep a couple of mixed fleets purely for interception.
And usually this can hold them off before bigger ships wipe out your perimeter, so it is wise to keep a couple of mixed fleets purely for interception.
posted on November 20th, 2009, 1:40 pm
posted on November 20th, 2009, 7:58 pm
posted on November 20th, 2009, 8:11 pm
Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on November 20th, 2009, 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vutpa' shouldn't take less damage - it's a medium sized vessel 
I was wrong: takes battleship damage. 
Borderline exploits aside, B'rels and KbeajQ (and a spattering of Veqlaragh if you are the right avatar) do very well against Breen Cruisers. I can say this Boggz, because it works. B'rels can retreat from Cruisers fairly easily if they are chasing them, reducing losses to very little, plus, all you need to do is click ahead of the cruisers and that guarantees you will almost always stay in range. Martok B'rels obviously tend to do worse. Sang's actually do extremely well even if they take "extra damage" because they are small and well shielded with effective weaponry. One thing you should know is that all vessels asides from large ones/stations take exactly the same amount of damage from Breen energy torpedoes.
I was wrong: takes battleship damage. Helev Griffins with jammer will pop any number of them as long as you have 6 or more (hopefully this will be fixed).
Borderline exploits aside, B'rels and KbeajQ (and a spattering of Veqlaragh if you are the right avatar) do very well against Breen Cruisers. I can say this Boggz, because it works
. B'rels can retreat from Cruisers fairly easily if they are chasing them, reducing losses to very little, plus, all you need to do is click ahead of the cruisers and that guarantees you will almost always stay in range. Martok B'rels obviously tend to do worse. Sang's actually do extremely well even if they take "extra damage" because they are small and well shielded with effective weaponry. One thing you should know is that all vessels asides from large ones/stations take exactly the same amount of damage from Breen energy torpedoes.posted on November 20th, 2009, 8:20 pm
Well, part of the reason for me writing this was as an alternative to sensor jammer spam, which is clearly an exploit when used en mass. I mean, we might as well go back to using bug rams against non-borg ships and c-11s if we're going to play that way. 
But you're right, Boggz. As I said in my first post, you should be fine as Helev. But if rhienns and other ships aren't cutting it, this is one thing that will work for you.
Susas work well against breen cruisers because you can cloak right on top of them and last ditch while keeping up with the maneuvers of their fleet. Range shouldn't be a problem for any klingon vessels because of this. And how many times do I have to say that breen torpedoes do the same average damage to all vessels??!! >:( Oh, but of course Dom posted before I did, and explained everything before I was finished. Thanks dom. 
But at least you've heard it from 2 people now.
But you're right, Boggz. As I said in my first post, you should be fine as Helev. But if rhienns and other ships aren't cutting it, this is one thing that will work for you.Susas work well against breen cruisers because you can cloak right on top of them and last ditch while keeping up with the maneuvers of their fleet. Range shouldn't be a problem for any klingon vessels because of this. And how many times do I have to say that breen torpedoes do the same average damage to all vessels??!! >:( Oh, but of course Dom posted before I did, and explained everything before I was finished. Thanks dom.
But at least you've heard it from 2 people now. posted on November 20th, 2009, 8:45 pm
I"m aware of the static DPS, thank you. Keep in mind you mention specifically thought that, as a reason to use the spectre more, the breen torpedoes do less to it. If it doesn't do less, clearly it does more 
to the Sang than the Spectre. You mention that it's different in this case because hte spectre is Medium sized, and correct me if I'm wrong but I was of the understanding that Spectre's took 100% torpedo hits, just 75% damage.
-DOM
[sarcasm]Thank you, Dom for reminding me how to chase vessels by clicking ahead of them ... lol I had no idea. [/sarcasm] That was not the issue. Sure, B'rels can keep up, but if you happen to make a slight mistake with that odd happening where your cursor remains an attack cursor for a few seconds it will kill your inertia.
MAL-
I was not advocating the use of Griffins and Jammer. I don't like using more than 2 for that reason BUT since it was a topic about current counters ... it's hard to ignore. I also find Breen Cruisers to be a little bit of an exploit given that they are master kiters and the devs have already explained that kiting was not intended in the way we use it.
I do agree about the Su'sa. They have a nice top speed to keep up with them stinky cruisers too. They can certainly peel off and retreat as they need to as well. B'rels really cannot. They are too fragile and will perish 50% of the time as the torpedoes follow EVEN if they are peeled off as the first shots start to hit them. 3+ cruisers = 50/50 dead B'rel.
to the Sang than the Spectre. You mention that it's different in this case because hte spectre is Medium sized, and correct me if I'm wrong but I was of the understanding that Spectre's took 100% torpedo hits, just 75% damage.-DOM
[sarcasm]Thank you, Dom for reminding me how to chase vessels by clicking ahead of them ... lol I had no idea. [/sarcasm] That was not the issue. Sure, B'rels can keep up, but if you happen to make a slight mistake with that odd happening where your cursor remains an attack cursor for a few seconds it will kill your inertia.
MAL-
I was not advocating the use of Griffins and Jammer. I don't like using more than 2 for that reason BUT since it was a topic about current counters ... it's hard to ignore. I also find Breen Cruisers to be a little bit of an exploit given that they are master kiters and the devs have already explained that kiting was not intended in the way we use it.
I do agree about the Su'sa. They have a nice top speed to keep up with them stinky cruisers too. They can certainly peel off and retreat as they need to as well. B'rels really cannot. They are too fragile and will perish 50% of the time as the torpedoes follow EVEN if they are peeled off as the first shots start to hit them. 3+ cruisers = 50/50 dead B'rel.
posted on November 20th, 2009, 9:01 pm
posted on November 20th, 2009, 9:18 pm
posted on November 20th, 2009, 9:18 pm
I think you're making more out of this than needs to be. The reason I wrote this post was to help some people specifically who were having trouble. One of them asked if the spectre would be a good counter and I said I thought it would be, and I would check out some numbers for him. It is indeed a good counter against them. So instead of just telling a couple of people, I thought I would post it here, so that if there are others having the same problem, they've got one more tool in their arsenal. I'm glad you have no troubles countering it as Romulans. That's great. But there are some people who are having that trouble, and this is for them.
No offense man, but if you weren't advocating it, why write it? Part of why I wrote this was to help people not use Sensor Jammer spam and give them viable tactics to counter breen cruisers, without having to resort to something that will make people not want to play games with them anymore.
Also, I never said that you would be able to peel off brels against this kind of attack. You're going to take some losses. Of course you are out-producing them at a rate of 3-1 (2 klingons yards with the smaller build time factored in) Mort's solution is also very good. Also, the ability to decloak right on top of the breen nullifies any advantage they had.
As far as the spectre goes, I'm not sure what it's miss rate is for other torpedoes, but I've double checked the odfs for the breen cruiser, and they do have a 20% miss rate, plus the battleship status and the 25% torpedo damage reduction. So half damage is better than full damage.
But there are some people who are having that trouble, and this is for them.Helev Griffins with jammer will pop any number of them as long as you have 6 or more (hopefully this will be fixed).
I was not advocating the use of Griffins and Jammer.
No offense man, but if you weren't advocating it, why write it? Part of why I wrote this was to help people not use Sensor Jammer spam and give them viable tactics to counter breen cruisers, without having to resort to something that will make people not want to play games with them anymore.
Also, I never said that you would be able to peel off brels against this kind of attack. You're going to take some losses. Of course you are out-producing them at a rate of 3-1 (2 klingons yards with the smaller build time factored in) Mort's solution is also very good. Also, the ability to decloak right on top of the breen nullifies any advantage they had.
As far as the spectre goes, I'm not sure what it's miss rate is for other torpedoes, but I've double checked the odfs for the breen cruiser, and they do have a 20% miss rate, plus the battleship status and the 25% torpedo damage reduction. So half damage is better than full damage.
posted on November 20th, 2009, 10:46 pm
posted on November 20th, 2009, 10:52 pm
silent93 wrote:The Spectre has the Oversized Shields special, which reduces damage from torpedoes. The Borg Mixed-Tech version takes damage like a station on top of that.
Yup, and that reduces the damage taken even more
posted on November 20th, 2009, 10:53 pm
The Borg mixed tech version is a frigate refit.
posted on November 22nd, 2009, 7:30 am
You guys got me curious, so I looked up the borg mixed tech frigate refit. Breen torpedo damage is 4.908 for all ranks. So similar to to the spectre, but it always gets hit by torpedoes because it's a station. It should do extra damage, since the cruisers have a defense of 20, but it also takes longer to make. And you need a Borg ally. And the dominion bomber's tetryon photon torpedo does triple damage to it. 
So if you needed more firepower than the spectre alone can provide and have a borg buddy, then you could build those as well to support you.
So if you needed more firepower than the spectre alone can provide and have a borg buddy, then you could build those as well to support you. posted on November 22nd, 2009, 4:14 pm
Last edited by Dominus_Noctis on November 22nd, 2009, 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It shouldn't do extra damage because it counts as a station for damage calculation purposes though - unless there is an error in the odf's . I sent you a pm about this a few minutes ago (there is in fact something screwy in the odf's about the dread in general I think), but the mixed-tech takes less damage then a Norexan - in line with it being a station. Of course... it also seemingly takes the same amount as the other dreads... which is downright weird, since they don't count as stations - just as battleships . Pause for more back and forth
. I sent you a pm about this a few minutes ago (there is in fact something screwy in the odf's about the dread in general I think), but the mixed-tech takes less damage then a Norexan - in line with it being a station. Of course... it also seemingly takes the same amount as the other dreads... which is downright weird, since they don't count as stations - just as battleships . Pause for more back and forth 1, 2
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