Noob question: Best use of Generix Specter Refits?

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posted on March 16th, 2012, 10:43 pm
Hi guys,
I'm new here but I've been following the Fleetops project for a while. I'm just playing AI games but I was wondering how best to use the Generix Specter refits. Which ships do they counter? They're relatively slow to get to and build and don't seem to be good against late game ships. I don't understand their defence bonus as no non-scout ships have attack values below 10. They're pretty slow as well and so can't chase the small ships they have a bonus against. What's the right strategy here?
posted on March 16th, 2012, 11:05 pm
see here

tl;dr:

  • spanks early game ships
  • tanks early game ships
  • doesn't do worse against later game ships
  • can raid pretty well
  • deals higher damage to short range ships
  • its special makes it take no damage from pulses for 15 sec, this has many uses:
      [li]triggering the special makes the enemy target another ship due to replaceweapon
    • can help it run away/cloak out from pulse armed ships
    • it hurts your gen's shields/hull though
    • sublists are stupid
        [li]welcome to the forum
      • hope you enjoy yourself
      [/li]
    [/li]
posted on March 17th, 2012, 12:38 am
Epic sublist there, Myles  :thumbsup:

The Spectre does extra damage to short-range, meaning it is mostly useful against Klingon, Federation, and Borg early game ships.  In theory, Generix are meant to be built in moderate numbers to inexpensively augment the fleet, then upgraded later allowing for very efficient use of resources.  In practice, it isn't a good choice because the Griffin can fill the same role much better and the Rhienn is a sufficient counter for short range.

Both the Generix's torpedoes and the Spectre's shield seem like they were designed with the next patch in mind, not this one.  I think of them as prototypes, a sign of things to come but not actually worth using in the current patch.

One thing to note is that the spectre shield defends against weapon damage, not ship offense.  This can be hard to keep track of, since it mostly affects small ships but there are exceptions like Rhienns and Kbeajq that aren't reduced and B-8 and T-15 that are because they fire a lot of small shots.
posted on March 17th, 2012, 1:22 am
There ia no good strat for this vessel atm you can get lucky ith them.if your oponent is lazy but you.can't raid because they are so slow and of they are all you have it will be hard to right raiders off as again they are too slow, they don't have great fire power and they are not tanks.

They should be avoided untill the next patch unless you mix them in a fleet but even then they will slow you down.

Griffins are a better choice.
posted on March 17th, 2012, 3:15 am
They are the same speed as Akiras and many other warships - in fact, they are only 10 speed slower than many commonly used craft, like the K'beajQ, K'Vort, Probe, etc :)

In previous months, there was a pattern of play of rushing to them and upgrading, just as folks did with the Disruptor Rhienn. However, the new paradigm is to play mainly with Helev Griffins/Leahvals  ^-^
posted on March 17th, 2012, 6:54 am
Last edited by Tryptic on March 17th, 2012, 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
Dom, I think you're looking at the crew number instead.

Here's a handy Speed Guide to Fleet Ops, maybe I should put it in its own post later:

Speed 70 and below: Mobile Turret.  All-or-nothing when it attacks. (S-7 Defender, Cube)
Speed 80-90: Slow Fleet Backbone.  Cannot attack in small numbers. (E2, Sang, V-13, Diamond)
Speed 100: Medium Fleet Backbone.  Too slow to use for raiding. (Generix, Dode, Vorcha)
Speed 110: Fast Fleet Backbone.  Still too slow to use for raiding. (Akira, B5, Griffin)
Speed 120: Balanced. Can outmaneuver enemy Fleet ships. (Sphere, Kbeajq, T-15)
Speed 130: Raider. Can raid enemy mining effectively. (Leahval, Intrepid, Bug)
Speed 140: Interceptor.  Can only be caught by other interceptors, but due to their short range they may still take damage.  Mostly ineffective in fleets. (Scube, S2, Monsoon, Brel, Shrike)

So you see, the Generix is clearly not in the range of being able to raid.  Not only is it 2 speed classes below the threshold required for a ship to be effective in small numbers, it's medium ranged and low-tech in a class that is otherwise entirely comprised of long-range and/or high-defense ships.

You can't mix this with your other Romulan ships, it will slow down your fleet during a phase of the game where it is impossible for you to have an effective slow fleet.  And we all know how good Romulans are at playing defensive while they build up a slow fleet  :sweatdrop:

((Note that the Sang, Diamond, and Dode are unique for their classes due to having a long-range attack that can fire backward with full damage.  Along with the Chonaq and the Saber, these 5 ships are the only ones that can do this))
posted on March 17th, 2012, 10:30 am
Wow! First lists and sublists (!!) and now colorzz! Awesome!! :thumbsup:
Very nice illustration, Tryptic. :)
posted on March 17th, 2012, 11:29 am
yeah them colours make i feel irie

Image

sadly i think the list is a little arbitrary and doesn't consider all the multiple uses for ships. vorchas can raid quite well, they deal full damage to miners, and have the longevity to cloak away. and the fastest responding ships will usually be short range too. raiding isn't determined solely by speed, obviously more speed is helpful for raiding, but ships without the speed can still raid if used correctly. a lot of people raid by brining their whole fleet anyway, to get as many kills as possible before they have to run away.
posted on March 17th, 2012, 1:25 pm
yeah, I'm still mentally gathering a list of exceptions and side-notes.  The Klingons have a complement of slower ships that can raid, due to their cloak combined with their incredibly resilient mining, while the Feds and Dominion have a few specific ships that they can replace easily and thus are less concerned about.

For the sake of this discussion, though, Romulan ships do not fall into the same category as those Klingon ships for several reasons.  They have limited access to repair yards and turrets, their miners are always weaker than their opponent's, and their ships come in smaller numbers with less offense overall.
posted on March 17th, 2012, 1:34 pm
spectres can raid for a similar reason as the vorcha. they have cloak, and their weapons do large amounts of damage to miners, meaning a small number of specs can clear out mining quickly. could work while your phase plates rhienns defend against the enemy, stopping you from getting outflanked. also you could catch them when their fleet is busy doing something else. the game is situational, the wrong ship in the right hands and right circumstance can still get the job done.

currently all everyone thinks about is LEAVAL LEAVAL LEAVAHL LEAHVAHL LEVAL ad nauseam.
posted on March 17th, 2012, 5:11 pm
Woopse, yup, I did indeed mess up crew and speed :)

Can't really add anything to this discussion - lately there's been a trend of the older players really boxing themselves into tried and true strategies (read: boring) and not willing to go back and relearn basics. As a result, new players see those strategies and think that's the only way to play, because the older players are winning with them. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

1-2 Generix act like lone wolves - they are extremely difficult to chase around if you've got two such groups blasting miners apart without dedicating large chunks of your fleet to doing so, and are quite fast to produce. They aren't interceptors, but all heavily armed and armored cloakable craft are put to great use when in small numbers raiding miners.

Furthermore about speed, B-8's are still good raiders and - though you'll rarely see it - a duo or triplet of Serkas will clear out many expansions in less time than it takes to recharge the cloak. Raiding in general depends largely on how good a job you are distracting your opponents and how much they think they are going to lose - if you stink at getting players to go where you want them to, you aren't going to even be able to raid with your real interceptors, like S-2s or Monsoons, without taking tremendous losses.
posted on March 17th, 2012, 5:24 pm
Yea I agree with this, ships like the specter are great especially late game when you will find huge fleets of s2s and monsoons running around. The same goes with the normal generix its easy to see that ship and think that its not useful, but it really can be a great ship especially against a dominion player who rushes to a big yard or a fed player who rushes to warpins. Just throw out some leahvals and generix and then they will be forced to go monsoon which can be countered later on by specters
posted on March 17th, 2012, 6:05 pm
Thanks for all the info guys. Seems to me, for raiding purposes, the resources needed to research and build specters could be better spent on producing more griffins/leavhals or even rhienns/shrikes.
posted on March 17th, 2012, 6:40 pm
well if you're only using them for raiding then you are underusing them. they make adequate fleet ships.

their weapons do increased damage to weak ships, but deal standard damage to everything else. just like griffins. they are slightly tougher than griffins too.

they also have a passive that lets them mix into fleets well, as their passive is offensive, they don't have to rely on ships shooting at them.

if people built warbirds then a few specs would work great escorting birds. speeds are similar and the specs can use their special as they tank for birds. plus if people see your birds and try putting out small ships to gang rape your birds then the specs will clean them out quickly.

also specs murder fighters quicker, which is handy. fed fighters use pulses too.
posted on March 17th, 2012, 9:33 pm
Last edited by Tryptic on March 17th, 2012, 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
You guys, people are using a smaller number of strategies because they have explored the possibilities and learned what works.  If anybody knows the best strategies, it will be the ones playing, not the people discussing on the forums.  When a group of experienced players stop using a strategy, you can't just say there's something wrong with those players.  You need to fix the strategy.

And what's this about "making the enemy go where you want?"  You can't build the game's balance on the assumption that some players will make stupid mistakes.  You need to plan for both players making the best decisions possible and go from there, in which case it is impossible for slower ships to outmaneuver faster ships.

3 Spectres or Serkas will cost WAY more than the expansion you wipe out.  You would have to successfully raid three times before the enemy's losses would start to match the money you spent.  The Klingons can strip an undefended expansion of miners with 4-5 Ktingas that cost as much as ONE of these ships.

I could kill those 2 raiding spectres easier than the ktingas, and unlike the ktingas they cost a serious chunk of my opponent's money.  They're not affordable for either raiding or fleet action roles.
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