Why doesn't starfleet Tell the Romulans to F*** off?

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 8:55 pm

I am really hoping that Star Trek Online is NOT cannon. That is a horrible horrible game and it should be treated as just a video game offshoot. It would be the equivalent of citing the Star Wars Christmas special as cannon material for that universe.

How the fuck that company was given the rights to that license is beyond me. They were famous for cookie cutter low budget and crappy MMOs in the past......of course with Roddenberry dead maybe they just didn't give a damn about quality anymore.

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 9:47 pm

The Hobus supernova and the destruction of Romulus is canon for the TNG era. In an interview, the writer for Star Trek Online explains how she'd laid out a timeline of major events leading up to 2409 at some point in late 2008 or early 2009, before she knew of the plot of the 2009 film. She relates that Paramount came back with "we have to talk", and she ended up incorporating the events -- and their aftermath -- into the game's lore.

not it isn't.

canon is things that were in: star trek tv show, or star trek movie, also acceptable is star trek animated series.

nothing else is canon. nothing.

i don't care what sto staff member said in an interview, unless that interview is in a broadcast episode or movie it isn't canon. sto is a game, nothing that happened in it is canon. also irrelevant is what paramount said to anyone. paramount can only make things canon by making episodes/movies.

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 10:24 pm

The new movie isn't a movie? According to MA, only the name of the star/event is non-canon... and it has a picture of Romulus die that looks very live-action.

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 11:03 pm

JJ Trek is very hard to swallow as canon. The weapons don't look anything like the orginal series, the Klingons and Romulans don't look like..........Klingons or Romulans. It was developed for mass consumption. I guess technically it should be canon and it is in an alternate timeline but to be honest.........WTF? I love the movies but I still cringe at the inconsistencies. And the engineering section..........I swear that I worked at a factory that looked just like that years ago.

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 11:06 pm

To my understanding Romulus being destroyed kinda has to be cannon in the TNG era, if it werent the new universe wouldnt exist. Spock prime came FROM the universe we all know and love due to the events that transpired in "our" universe so that makes it canon as far as I know.

And as for the topic at hand, what Myles stated about how is having cloaks gonna stop any rogue crazy person from taking a cloaked ship to blow something up? I already said this earlier as well, it doesnt make any sense. Not like Shinzon would have given two shits if the federation had cloaks. It wouldnt have stopped his crazed plan. I dont see your logic nathanj by saying the feds having cloaks will make them think twice about pulling shady stuff. And if you tell the Romulans that were sending cloaked guard ships to key sectors...well that would be plain stupid. Why would you tell them youll have cloaked ships around as scouts? A better idea would be delpoying sensor nets or outposts in those key areas (which they likely already have) so what would be the point to add a cloaked ship or 2? If they know a system is monitored they will likely stay away from it anyway. And IF they were to try something they would send a cloaked ship in to do what they want to do then leave, the federation cloaked ship prolly wouldnt even know they were ever there!

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 11:17 pm

JJ Trek is very hard to swallow as canon. The weapons don't look anything like the orginal series, the Klingons and Romulans don't look like..........Klingons or Romulans. It was developed for mass consumption. I guess technically it should be canon and it is in an alternate timeline but to be honest.........WTF? I love the movies but I still cringe at the inconsistencies. And the engineering section..........I swear that I worked at a factory that looked just like that years ago.

Well the romulans had pointy ears, remember they werent military, they were civilians, just very pissed off civilians. And how could the Klingons look like Klingons when there werent any in the movie?

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 11:22 pm

The Klingons were in the movie, but got removed before it came out. There is a deleted scene with Nero in Rura Penthe.

The things looking different makes more sense if you believe it diverted before the movie even started.

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 11:28 pm

What sensor nets? I think that people are confusing the tachyon pings from Fleet Ops with canon technology. There is nothing stopping a cloaked ship from getting close to a location short of a "tachyon grid" and that was along time ago so maybe that doesn't even work anymore. Hell the Enterprise had to try blindfiring because they couldn't detect shit on their sensors. There are NO NO NO NO NO countermeasures that work on existing cloaks. Even the Dominion anti cloaking sensors were overcome by both the Romulans and the Klingons mid way through the war as well. There are NO countermeasures to stopped cloaked ships. The Romulan shuttle that carried the ambassador to DS9 was undetectable by their sensors and this was on a heavily upgraded military station with top of the line weapons, shields and sensors recently added. I don't know how I can emphasize this enough. NO..........COUNTERMEASURES............FOR...........CLOAKING.

As far as Shinzons ship is concerned it had to stop and power up its super goo which was detectable by the sensors on Enterprise E. He could have easily dispatched an normal starships orbiting earth since it was such a powerful ship and could fire while cloaked........cloaked vessels could have hit him when he was on the process of charging up his super death ray............Dammit I hated the plotline of that stupid movie.

The Klingons I was referring to were from supposedly cut footage where they looked more like Cylons that actual Klingons. They had helmets with red eyes and stuff.

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 11:35 pm

It would be useful if you actually read a post before replying: Gravitic Sensor Net and Tachyon Detection Grid were already brought up before.

A gravitic sensor net was a type of sensor grid employed by Federation border outposts to detect cloaked ships in the 2360s. It was not considered completely effective, and was eventually supplemented by the tachyon detection grid. (TNG: "Face of the Enemy")

Following this success, the Federation began deploying the tachyon detection grid to supplement its gravitic sensor net along the border of the Romulan Neutral Zone. (TNG: "Face of the Enemy")

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 11:43 pm

Trying to say that there is no countermeasure for cloaking devices is like saying there is no counter to submarines. (Which cloak is essentially analogous to in Star Trek).

At the very basic level, you can detect that something is there, you just aren't sure what, how big, how fast, what heading, or where. Countermeasures start as simple as just blasting the area with proximity burst photons, which are "canon" as they were used on "Balance of Terror" (or they were proximity phasers or something, the visual effects were a bit hit and miss back then). You just blast away until something shows up in the 'wake' of one of the explosions. All cloaks produce a shimmering distortion that it is possible to see with the naked eye, albeit extremely difficultly.

If you can tune your sensors to a particular emission (plasma, or some exotic particle emitted by the cloak itself, or weapon systems etc) then you at least can see where a cloaked ship has been and on what general heading, which lets you 'strobe' phasers over the area and see if anything hits.

Remember, a cloaking device is a tactical tool, it is not an invisibility or invulnerability shield (Klingon Academy 101 that )

posted on January 4th, 2013, 12:00 am

Neither of which are effective anymore as shown by Shinzon just waltzing right through them undetected. Klingons orbited Romulus undetected.

"Another advanced cloak was encountered in 2379. The Reman warbird Scimitar employed a new type of "perfect" cloaking device that did not give off any tachyon emissions or residual antiprotons, making the Scimitar completely undetectable while cloaked. It allowed the ship to fire weapons and use shields while cloaked, as well as allow the ship to drop the cloak protecting certain quadrants of the ship without de-cloaking the entire ship at once. The effectiveness of this technology was demonstrated when the Scimitar engaged the USS Enterprise-E, the IRW Valdore, and another warbird in the Bassen Rift, and was able to destroy one of the warbirds and cripple the other without suffering any significant damage. Only through repeated blind targeting, barrages of phasers and torpedoes, and the use of telepathic triangulation by Commander Deanna Troi was the Enterprise-E able to overcome the Scimitar's cloak. (Star Trek Nemesis) "

As I said there are NO countermeasures for cloaks at this time.

I did find this which actually alleviates some of my problem. Even if they didn't mention it specifically it does explain why they Romulan Officer all of a sudden disappeared from the Defiant and why they were able to cloak all those minds. It appears that adjustments were infact made to the treaty......they just couldn't fit it into the script. I am happy now.


Ronald D. Moore commented: "We wanted to throw in a line somewhere explaining that there was a follow-on agreement with the Roms that allowed us greater freedom with the cloak, but never found a comfortable place to put it." (AOL chat, 1997)

posted on January 4th, 2013, 12:05 am

Got any proof that's actually the norm for Romulan ships? No, you haven't because there is nothing that even implies it's anything but a one-off with no plans left over (it apparently wasn't even a Romulan ship). By that same logic, all Federation ships have Slipstream and Ablative Generators because Voyager was shown using them once.

The countermeasures still apply until canon shows otherwise, which it hasn't. Try again.

posted on January 4th, 2013, 12:12 am

JJ Trek is very hard to swallow as canon. The weapons don't look anything like the orginal series, the Klingons and Romulans don't look like..........Klingons or Romulans. It was developed for mass consumption. I guess technically it should be canon and it is in an alternate timeline but to be honest.........WTF? I love the movies but I still cringe at the inconsistencies. And the engineering section..........I swear that I worked at a factory that looked just like that years ago.

"Come, come, Mr. Scott. Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant!"

On the engineering thing, they ran out of money and so had to make do with a brewery.

We all know Romulans were Vulcan's who says there aren't Romulans who remained the appearance of the Vulcan's perhaps a second class, a worker class. In the past we have only ever seen the ruling class and the military. Perhaps this second class are the grunts, the labourers etc.

Try and be more open minded, a lot of your posts in this thread are showing us you've made an opinion and are not open to other ideas of views on the subject. If that's your choice then that's your choice but trying to convince everyone else of such a ridged viewpoint isn't the best use of your time I think.

[nathanj]

posted on January 4th, 2013, 12:17 am

Last edited by nathanj on January 4th, 2013, 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

@Tyler.......Um......the onus is on you to prove that they don't have the technology any more.....not on me. They clearly had it, you have to show that somehow all the data for a huge project like the Scimitar was only loaded on one persons hard drive and it crashed.

The Remans were the "soldiers" of the Romulan Empire, not the scientists. Normal Romulans scientists most likely developed that cloak and more than likely the entire ship and Shinzor simply stole it. The Scimitar is a huge ship that would require a lot of materials and manpower to produce. You don't just have one copy of that kind of engineering project lying around.

Canon says that Romulan currently have perfect cloak technology, it is in the freaking movie for crying out loud.

As far as the slipstream and ablative generators that is something that you will have to figure out on your own. Because it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion. Maybe just like Transwarp, the Slipstream drive had some major flaw that couldn't be overcome at this time. The best explanation for the transphasic torpedoes and the ablative generators gone missing is the one I heard about Dr. Who and the Temporal Agency (whatever it was called) travelling back and removing that technology and any memory of it in order to not upset the timeline..........after all it was future Janeway that gave to them in the first place.

@Majestic........I am fine with the Romulan "looks" explanation except that if you watch the film breakdown by the youtube critic Red"something ( he has done them for Avatar and other movies as well and they are hilarious, will try to find the link) he posts side by sides and they look absolutely nothing alike. The Klingons were nothing at all like the TOS, TNG or other other shows, movies that I have ever seen.

I am not sure what you mean about me having to be open minded about the cloaking issue. That is somewhat nonsensical. It is an either or issue. Either you want Starfleet to have more cloaking "priviliges" or you don't. I was happy to find the quote from the one producer that said they wanted to mention changes made to the treaty which is what I had originally wanted and some people claimes was impossible........now that I have been proven right, I am satisfied.

I bit OT but even though Nemesis is supposedly canon.....they screwed it up big time. The Scimitar was also faster than the Enterprise E and Romulan ships are never portrayed as faster except in that one movies........at full cloak too.

Edit: Found it..........it's in four sections and I don't remember specifically which one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZjkHUrEuHc

posted on January 4th, 2013, 12:28 am

Actually, you need to prove they do have something the show never shows them using. You're trying to open the door for speculation and fanon to override canon. Canon which shows Reman slaves with a super-godship never seen before or after under the control Romulans or anyone and was listed as a ship of Reman lineage by the designers. Also with no implication of anymore or surviving design plans.

So again, got any proof? Because canon has never shown it used by anyone but the Remans. Never even implied it wasn't a one-off thing.

And the Voyager one isn't irrelevent because it shows the flaw in your logic; one ship used it, so every ship after clearly has the same stuff by default even if canon never shows it. Exactly what you said about the Reman super-cloak.