Why doesn't starfleet Tell the Romulans to F*** off?

posted on January 2nd, 2013, 10:36 pm

First and foremost I agree with Tyler and Myles, the Federation would NEVER break a treaty THEY basically created to keep the Romulans happy. Now as far as countermeasures go, as with any new generation of cloak it will take time to develop a counter to it, but they always do. And nathanj, yes the last movie had a big bad Remen ship that couldnt be detected while cloaked, so what? Its new tech.

There will not always be countermeasures. That is a very dangerous assumption to make. All it takes is one ship with some new form of undetectable cloak to launch some of that Romulan super goo that destroys stars and you can kiss earth goodbye.....it almost worked in DS9 when that changeling took the runabout disguised as Obrien.

Now how would the Federation having cloaks fix this problem? I mean any crazy person with a cloak could STILL go blow up Earth, just because feds have cloaks that doesnt make them immune to them. And again its only a matter of time before a countermeasure is found. And what does the changeling on the runabout have to do with cloaks anyway?

Besides we already know the REAL reason the feds dont use cloaks, its because they already have the most badass cloak around and if they were given to all federation ships they would be unstopabale.

posted on January 2nd, 2013, 11:39 pm

MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction for the Romulans.

If Starfleet had lots of ships that cloaked that would make the Romulans think twice about doing some sort of sneak attack since Starfleet could respond in kind.

The changeling was mentioned because he was on his way to blow up Bajor's sun killing billions of people. That was one small ship. The point is that you don't need fleets of ships to take out a world anymore you just need one small ship the size of a runabout.

How can anyone be opposed to even having ships cloaked in strategic areas to intercept and stop any other ships that do manage to get through other defenses.

I also don't get where all this countermeasure stuff keeps coming from. There aren't any countermeasures. How many times was the Enterprise D surprised by Romulan or Klingon ships decloaking. A Romulan Warbird was orbitting DS9 for days and was only detected because they were using some kind of beam on Obrien. Had they just been doing recon they never would have been spotted. There are NO countermeasures. Even the Dominion who had the most sophisticated anti cloaking detection systems ran into a brick wall about half way through the war when as I mentioned cloaked ships were used succesffuly on them to take out an entire shipyard something that would have taken an entire fleet of uncloaked vessels fighting their way through and taking lots of casualties.

Cloaking technology is just far to invaluable to be left alone. It is insane that Starfleet doesn't demand changes to the treaty and if the Romulans don't agree than to hell with them.

As far as their badass cloak is concerned.........I don't think I would trust it enough considering that it malfuntioned and caused one ship to materialize in an asteroid. I would be plenty happy with just standard cloaks.

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 12:22 am

No cloak detection... guess that explains why they've been repeatedly detected throughout each series, why the Federation has an Anti-Cloak Sensor Net around their borders, why DS9 detected the Cardassian/Romulan fleet approaching because of the high levels of tetryon particles they generate and that the Long-range tachyon scanner and Antiproton beam detect cloaked ships.

The damn things get detected all the time. They even have detection grids designed for that exact purpose.

It's very simple: War = bad, provoke war = bad, keep the peace = good. Telling one of the most powerful Alpha Quadrent powers to go F*** themselves = absurdly bad.

What's next; demand the Borg share Transwarp?

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 12:32 am

MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction for the Romulans.

If Starfleet had lots of ships that cloaked that would make the Romulans think twice about doing some sort of sneak attack since Starfleet could respond in kind.

that assumes that starfleet can magically invent and produce a fleet of cloaking devices. cloaking devices have to be manufactured, and making enough for "lots of ships" wouldn't go unnoticed.

the federation had a sensor system near the neutral zone that detected cloaked ships, the romulans explicitly said that they couldn't cross it. presumably the romulans had their own detection abilities, seeing as they pretty much invented the cloak.

A Romulan Warbird was orbitting DS9 for days and was only detected because they were using some kind of beam on Obrien. Had they just been doing recon they never would have been spotted.

nice try, you should rewatch that episode, they weren't doing anything to o'brien on purpose. their engine core was accidentally affecting him just by being near the station. they couldn't stop it, they didn't even know it was happening.

cloaked ships were used successfully on them to take out an entire shipyard something that would have taken an entire fleet of uncloaked vessels fighting their way through and taking lots of casualties.

yeah and a macgyver'd defiant was able to take down a neghvar, it's funny what plot armour can do. the cloak didn't make their plan strong, their main character contracts did.

but this is all completely ignoring that developing cloaks would require breaking a treaty and committing an act of war, which isn't something the ufp would ever do.

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 12:58 am

Truthfully the federation wouldnt have much to develop, they aready developed the most badass cloak, and yeah it malfunctioned on the Pegasus but that was mainly due to the crew trying to shut it down without knowing everything about it. The Enterprise D gave it a pretty successful test, so theres no reason they couldnt deploy them if the wished.

MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction for the Romulans.

If Starfleet had lots of ships that cloaked that would make the Romulans think twice about doing some sort of sneak attack since Starfleet could respond in kind.

The changeling was mentioned because he was on his way to blow up Bajor's sun killing billions of people. That was one small ship. The point is that you don't need fleets of ships to take out a world anymore you just need one small ship the size of a runabout.

How can anyone be opposed to even having ships cloaked in strategic areas to intercept and stop any other ships that do manage to get through other defenses.

I also don't get where all this countermeasure stuff keeps coming from. There aren't any countermeasures. How many times was the Enterprise D surprised by Romulan or Klingon ships decloaking. A Romulan Warbird was orbitting DS9 for days and was only detected because they were using some kind of beam on Obrien. Had they just been doing recon they never would have been spotted. There are NO countermeasures. Even the Dominion who had the most sophisticated anti cloaking detection systems ran into a brick wall about half way through the war when as I mentioned cloaked ships were used succesffuly on them to take out an entire shipyard something that would have taken an entire fleet of uncloaked vessels fighting their way through and taking lots of casualties.

Cloaking technology is just far to invaluable to be left alone. It is insane that Starfleet doesn't demand changes to the treaty and if the Romulans don't agree than to hell with them.

As far as their badass cloak is concerned.........I don't think I would trust it enough considering that it malfuntioned and caused one ship to materialize in an asteroid. I would be plenty happy with just standard cloaks.

MAD? Thats already the case for the Romulans and they know it! If they start a war by going for an alpha strike on say Earth, they know there will be war and the federation AND the Klingons will hand them their asses. The Federation doesnt NEED cloaks to keep the Romulans from starting crap. And as we have seen by Q's alternate future, if for some reason the Romulan empire were to fall the federation would likey develop cloaking technology, but at this point where they are at peace, why stir up trouble for an advantage that is, as you have pointed out, more a military edge then anything else when your currently at peace?

The main point of your argument is that it would prevent the Romulans from doing stuff to the federation, yet they have been at peace for years, why change the status quo? The Dominion war is over and theres no real forseeable threat to the federation at this point that warrents developing a cloak, and if they tried they would likely start a cold war of sorts with the Romulans. Yeah the Romulans may not openly declare war on the Federation but you think they wont find other ways to screw the Federation? So why try to avoid a confrontation with the Romulans by developing something they know will CAUSE a confrontation with them, it doesnt make much sense. The only other threat to the Federation at this point is the Borg, but its unlikely based on what weve seen that cloaks would be much use against them, unless it was one of those phasing cloaks.

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 1:11 am

I know, lets blame the writers. Somehow this is there fault.

Let them write an all out war scenario and when hardly anyone is left standing they can renegotiate the terms
of the treaty so the feds can have cloak. Mind you 3/4 of the total population on both sides is gone. Most of the ships
have been destroyed or crippled, but hey, its Wednesday and I felling a little rowdy. It seems worth the price, right.


M.A.D. was perfectly stated.

The Feds fight in the sun and the Romulans fight in the shadows. There is a mind set that goes with both. Just pick a side.

Lets not even get started on lowering your shields and turning off your weapons next to a Borg ship.

Tyler-that was funny

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 2:24 am

Truthfully the federation wouldnt have much to develop, they aready developed the most badass cloak, and yeah it malfunctioned on the Pegasus but that was mainly due to the crew trying to shut it down without knowing everything about it. The Enterprise D gave it a pretty successful test, so theres no reason they couldnt deploy them if the wished.

MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction for the Romulans.

If Starfleet had lots of ships that cloaked that would make the Romulans think twice about doing some sort of sneak attack since Starfleet could respond in kind.

The changeling was mentioned because he was on his way to blow up Bajor's sun killing billions of people. That was one small ship. The point is that you don't need fleets of ships to take out a world anymore you just need one small ship the size of a runabout.

How can anyone be opposed to even having ships cloaked in strategic areas to intercept and stop any other ships that do manage to get through other defenses.

I also don't get where all this countermeasure stuff keeps coming from. There aren't any countermeasures. How many times was the Enterprise D surprised by Romulan or Klingon ships decloaking. A Romulan Warbird was orbitting DS9 for days and was only detected because they were using some kind of beam on Obrien. Had they just been doing recon they never would have been spotted. There are NO countermeasures. Even the Dominion who had the most sophisticated anti cloaking detection systems ran into a brick wall about half way through the war when as I mentioned cloaked ships were used succesffuly on them to take out an entire shipyard something that would have taken an entire fleet of uncloaked vessels fighting their way through and taking lots of casualties.

Cloaking technology is just far to invaluable to be left alone. It is insane that Starfleet doesn't demand changes to the treaty and if the Romulans don't agree than to hell with them.

As far as their badass cloak is concerned.........I don't think I would trust it enough considering that it malfuntioned and caused one ship to materialize in an asteroid. I would be plenty happy with just standard cloaks.

MAD? Thats already the case for the Romulans and they know it! If they start a war by going for an alpha strike on say Earth, they know there will be war and the federation AND the Klingons will hand them their asses. The Federation doesnt NEED cloaks to keep the Romulans from starting crap. And as we have seen by Q's alternate future, if for some reason the Romulan empire were to fall the federation would likey develop cloaking technology, but at this point where they are at peace, why stir up trouble for an advantage that is, as you have pointed out, more a military edge then anything else when your currently at peace?

The main point of your argument is that it would prevent the Romulans from doing stuff to the federation, yet they have been at peace for years, why change the status quo? The Dominion war is over and theres no real forseeable threat to the federation at this point that warrents developing a cloak, and if they tried they would likely start a cold war of sorts with the Romulans. Yeah the Romulans may not openly declare war on the Federation but you think they wont find other ways to screw the Federation? So why try to avoid a confrontation with the Romulans by developing something they know will CAUSE a confrontation with them, it doesnt make much sense. The only other threat to the Federation at this point is the Borg, but its unlikely based on what weve seen that cloaks would be much use against them, unless it was one of those phasing cloaks.

Actually as I posted earlier my main point with cloaking techology isn't the Romulans, it's the other baddies out there such as the Borg, Dominion etc. I was just responding the the post about the Romulans. Pissing off some Romulans by equipping cloaking devices on our ships is a small price to pay for having a tool that is incredibly useful in combat. The terms should be renegotiated and if the Romulans don't like it then tough luck. They aren't going to start a war over it just like the Feds didn't start a war over the attempted theft of the Prometheus. Both sides would take casualties above and beyond what it was worth. I can't count the number of time it was Defiants cloaking device that saved their asses, or let them go somewhere they normally couldn't go, perform a mission that they couldn't do without a cloak. Let's face it cloaking technology is EXTREMELY useful.

I wouldn't be so quick to discount the Dominion as a possible future threat. I am not sure why you would think that cloaks would not be effective against the Borg, in fact there was an episode where that scientist was following a Borg cube with a cloaked ship undetected for awhile until he screwed it up. Unless you are talking about them just steamrolling the Feds with a couple dozen cubes then yeah they wouldn't make much difference.

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 3:02 am

I have read this post and some interesting points have been raised. At the end of the day, cloaking is in line with the Romulan ideologically, being that they are back stabbing striking from the shadows type of people. If they can get neighbour against neighbour without even firing a shot then they'll go for it.

The Federation is different, they are the goodie two shoes, the good guys and so cloaks don't fit them. Yes the Defiant had one, but it was a one off arrangement and was lost when the Breen blew that ship up. As far as we know it's successor never got it.

I also saw a point made about the current Klingon-Federation relationship being good at the current time and the Federation should ignore the treaty with the Romulans and just start using cloaks. It depends on what you mean by current events, as there are three main post-nemesis timelines that come to mind, there is the Fleet Ops one, the crappy STO one and then there are the Typhoon Pact books. In two of those timelines the Federation and Klingons are on friendly terms, in another (STO) they are at war and the Romulan Star Empire is on the verge of collapse, if not already after the loss of their Empresses. It all depends on which present/future timeline you're talking about.

Actually as I posted earlier my main point with cloaking techology isn't the Romulans, it's the other baddies out there such as the Borg, Dominion etc. I was just responding the the post about the Romulans. Pissing off some Romulans by equipping cloaking devices on our ships is a small price to pay for having a tool that is incredibly useful in combat. The terms should be renegotiated and if the Romulans don't like it then tough luck. They aren't going to start a war over it just like the Feds didn't start a war over the attempted theft of the Prometheus. Both sides would take casualties above and beyond what it was worth.

A excellent way to show your neighbours that you're good at honouring the treaties you sign. It will show all powers that the Federation doesn't stick to what it agrees too, could even make the current relations with the Klingon Empire sour. I don't feel it's worth it for a piece of technology that countermeasures are already available to counter it.

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 3:52 am

My point of cloaks being useless is whats the point of cloaking around the Borg? You kinda have to wait for them to show up and at that point theres no tip toeing around in the shadows, if they come in any numbers a cloak is gonna be next to useless. And as in endgame, they were able to force Janeways shuttle to decloak, granted she wanted to be captured, but they obviously have the ability to force a ship to decloak if need be. And yeah 7's parents followed a cube around, but the cube wasnt actively looking for a cloaked ship either. How long you think they would have been able to hide if they were being actively persued?

TBH the threat would have to be pretty massive for the Federation to break that treaty, and while the Borg threat is indeed big, cloaking technology would hardly diminish that threat, the Borg dont care that you can cloak, and cloaking devices on your ships wont save your planets. The Dominion is defeated, and with the treaty, and Odo supposedly running things in the Gamma quadrent, the threat there is minimal. Again there would have to be a HUGE threat that cloaking technology could counter that would make the Federation tell the Romulans to sod off. And from where the last movie left off theres a good chance the Feds and the Romulans may sit down and start taking peace more seriously. So again there is no real incentive for the Feds to jepordize the peace with the Romulans. Yes cloaks give advantages, no one is saying they arnt, but based on what weve seen the Feds just wouldnt at this point develop cloaks for a future threat that doesnt exist atm. And as Majestic stated, even the Klingons could view the feds developmet of a cloak as a threat to them, it would be looked at as dishonorable and even as a threat to the Empire if ever things go sour again between them. Yes ATM they are allies but look how quick that changed when the Klingons decided to go rampaging through someone elses space. And klingons wont hesitate if they feel like kicking the crap outta someone, and to the Empire, better the feds not have cloaks, that gives them and edge if shit goes south down the road.

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 11:34 am

the raven didn't cloak, it used multi adaptive shielding technobabble technobabbly babbly babble that was specific to borg sensors. then it went offline for a few seconds and the borg detected them, actively pursued them, and could now see through the reactivated multi-plot device shielding.

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 5:04 pm

I have read this post and some interesting points have been raised. At the end of the day, cloaking is in line with the Romulan ideologically, being that they are back stabbing striking from the shadows type of people. If they can get neighbour against neighbour without even firing a shot then they'll go for it.

The Federation is different, they are the goodie two shoes, the good guys and so cloaks don't fit them. Yes the Defiant had one, but it was a one off arrangement and was lost when the Breen blew that ship up. As far as we know it's successor never got it.

I also saw a point made about the current Klingon-Federation relationship being good at the current time and the Federation should ignore the treaty with the Romulans and just start using cloaks. It depends on what you mean by current events, as there are three main post-nemesis timelines that come to mind, there is the Fleet Ops one, the crappy STO one and then there are the Typhoon Pact books. In two of those timelines the Federation and Klingons are on friendly terms, in another (STO) they are at war and the Romulan Star Empire is on the verge of collapse, if not already after the loss of their Empresses. It all depends on which present/future timeline you're talking about.

Actually as I posted earlier my main point with cloaking techology isn't the Romulans, it's the other baddies out there such as the Borg, Dominion etc. I was just responding the the post about the Romulans. Pissing off some Romulans by equipping cloaking devices on our ships is a small price to pay for having a tool that is incredibly useful in combat. The terms should be renegotiated and if the Romulans don't like it then tough luck. They aren't going to start a war over it just like the Feds didn't start a war over the attempted theft of the Prometheus. Both sides would take casualties above and beyond what it was worth.

A excellent way to show your neighbours that you're good at honouring the treaties you sign. It will show all powers that the Federation doesn't stick to what it agrees too, could even make the current relations with the Klingon Empire sour. I don't feel it's worth it for a piece of technology that countermeasures are already available to counter it.

I don't count books and video games like Star Trek Online as cannon. As I understand it the MMO is based off the alternate timeline started by the movies and not the existing universe that TNG is set in.

Considering that a cloaked Romulan ship under the command of a failed Romulan clone/spy was very close to wiping out all life on earth, I don't think that they would have much moral ground, if any, to stand on in opposing Starfleet using cloaking technology now. The Federation should simply tell them that the risk is to high and that the treaty is being renegotiated whether they like it or not. Simply having a small number of cloaked defense vessels around key areas like planets or stations could be a massive game changer for preventing sneak attacks like that. Also since the Romulan Senate was just wiped out they are in political turmoil (movie was a few years ago so maybe not currently, depends on Romulan politics) and they are going to be weakened greatly during negotiations.

The Federation successfully stared them down at Bajor risking possible war and the Romulans blinked and that was when the Romulans held all the cards since the Feds/Klingons desperately needed their help against the Dominion. Now that the war is over the balance of power is once again in the Feds/Klingons favor and the Romulans are not essential anymore so they have lost those cards on top of the previous ones that I mentioned earlier.

I would tell the Romulans at the very least that Starfleet will develop cloaking technology (kind of already do illegally anyways) and have the ability to throw it on their ships at a moments notice should the need arise. Also Starfleet should tell them that they will have a small number of cloaked vessels specifically to guard key locations from surprise attacks. There is no way that they could oppose that with any sort of credibility. If they try then then the Feds should call their bluff and tell them that if they don't agree with those terms then Starfleet will just go full on cloak.......maybe even use those awesome phase cloaks they made way back in the 1990s. They will cloak their big ships, their science ships, worker-bees, shuttle craft and their own moms. The Romulans will blink just like they did at Bajor especially since they have an even weaker hand to deal with this time around.

@Myles..........don't the Borg ever look out a window now and then?

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 5:48 pm

Considering that a cloaked Romulan ship under the command of a failed Romulan clone/spy was very close to wiping out all life on earth, I don't think that they would have much moral ground, if any, to stand on in opposing Starfleet using cloaking technology now.

Were you even watching nemesis? this guy just staged a violent coup to take over the romulan empire, he then acted so evil on his own, that a romulan commander launched a coup against him (which succeeded with picard's help). the romulans opposed shinzon as well.

The Federation should simply tell them that the risk is to high and that the treaty is being renegotiated whether they like it or not.

you misuese the word renegotiate. for it to be negotiation, both sides must accept the outcome.

Simply having a small number of cloaked defense vessels around key areas like planets or stations could be a massive game changer for preventing sneak attacks like that.

how would cloaked ships have protected earth from shinzon? shinzon knows that earth will have at least some military strength at earth (especially since the borg and breen have both tried funny stuff). whether those ships are cloaked or not, shinzon still had a plan to deal with them. whether he planned to blow them up, or quickly destroy earth while they're not looking we don't know, as he never reached earth. maybe he could even fire the stupid plot gaylaron lazor while cloaked. starfleet cloaked ships still can't detect the scimitar. both sides being invisible doesn't change much when defending earth, as starfleet's ships will always be there. they might as well be visible anyway.

Now that the war is over the balance of power is once again in the Feds/Klingons favor and the Romulans are not essential anymore so they have lost those cards on top of the previous ones that I mentioned earlier.

how do you reason that? if anything the opposite is true, the romulans entered the war near the end, deliberately picking the winning side and avoiding serious losses.

I would tell the Romulans at the very least that Starfleet will develop cloaking technology (kind of already do illegally anyways) and have the ability to throw it on their ships at a moments notice should the need arise.

the treaty forbids the development of cloak, as well as the deployment of it.

The Romulans will blink just like they did at Bajor especially since they have an even weaker hand to deal with this time around.

that's a wild assumption. look at recent (leading up to nemesis) history, relations between the ufp and romulans have never been better, they've worked together multiple times, and peace is winning over paranoia and hatred. now more than ever the ufp has less reason to betray the romulans by tearing up an agreement that acted as a building block for this new peace. the ufp just isn't like that. they're supposed to be the good guys, good guys don't break treaties and destroy the peace process. riker was even being sent to negotiate with the romulans.

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 6:00 pm

To clear up the confusion about STO, it happens in the TNG universe in the year 2409, several years after Romulus was destroyed in the Hobus cluster supernova that kicked off the Abrams universe. As such Spock and Nero are 'missing' in that universe and Political arrangements have changed wildly, allowing the feds to use cloak on several more ships, including every other defiant and all of the galaxy-x's. But moot point, as that is a non-canon universe. (As shown by Data being alive and commanding the Enterprise-E. Still not sure how they pulled that off.)

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 8:05 pm

Data being alive isn't unique to STO, he was also in the Nemesis tie-in complete wearing an STO uniform. He just hijacked control of his brothers body. Something about the emotion chip causing him to emerge from the uploads in the movie.

Still set in the canon universe, even if it's not canon itself.

posted on January 3rd, 2013, 8:31 pm

The Hobus supernova and the destruction of Romulus is canon for the TNG era. In an interview, the writer for Star Trek Online explains how she'd laid out a timeline of major events leading up to 2409 at some point in late 2008 or early 2009, before she knew of the plot of the 2009 film. She relates that Paramount came back with "we have to talk", and she ended up incorporating the events -- and their aftermath -- into the game's lore.

Of course, we don't have any canon information on how the loss of the capital planets has affected the Romulan Star Empire, but I would expect that for the time being at least the UFP will be very wary of breaking any treaties made with them until it's clear that it has ceased to exist as a coherent political entity.

As for how the treaty came about, I expect there was some lingering Romulan outrage and embarrassment after Kirk stole a cloaking device. Once Starfleet had decided not to include the technology into the fleet (for whatever reasons) then it could be used as a bargaining chip to ease relations with the Romulans.

(An aside -- while not strictly canon, the prelude comics to the 2009 film indicates that Data came back as a result of the download he did of himself into B4. I've not read them though, so I'm not fully sure).