Star Trek: Nemesis.....I noticed a "plot hole" last night.
posted on February 28th, 2010, 1:21 am
i didnt quote a post 
they are numbered points so quoting is irrelevant
they are numbered points so quoting is irrelevant
posted on February 28th, 2010, 1:55 am
posted on February 28th, 2010, 1:36 pm
you're correct, but late, i corrected him earlier in one of those huge posts. 
posted on February 28th, 2010, 8:57 pm
posted on February 28th, 2010, 9:35 pm
ok then.
Sortof off topic: I just herd the best name ever for the Shinzon. "The Copy/Paste Picard"
Sortof off topic: I just herd the best name ever for the Shinzon. "The Copy/Paste Picard"
posted on March 1st, 2010, 5:58 pm
My turn 
1) While the original intent may have been that there was only Data and Lore, there is no evidence to suggest that there weren't earlier androids, certainly Soong didn't just envision Lore right off the bat. It's possible that previous androids were reused for parts or perhaps a very few were given away as "field prototypes" if you will.
3) It is possible that the Romulans built it (unless it is explicitly said that the Remans built it, I don't exactly have the script in front of me, or the movie for all that) and the Remans simply managed to steal it. As for the Tal'Shiar, I get the feeling they only involve themselves in things they worry about. If the Remans were considered nothing but slaves I doubt anyone on Romulus, including the Tal'Shiar would bother with them.
4) Again it's possible that the Romulans built it. And if the Remans were used as mass laborers it would have been easier for them to storm the ship and capture it. And even if they were just used as slaves, I'm sure they learned little bits and pieces while working, overhearing this worker or that.
5-6) It's irrelevant what the writers want, we are looking for an in universe explanation. Shinzon chose that planet because it would attract Picard's attention. Why would there be a positronic signal coming from a pre-warp planet? That's the draw. Shinzon is toying with Picard and loving it. He's just adding to the confusion. Could the whole away team been killed, maybe. But Shinzon figured that phasers would win over bullets in this case. Shinzon probably also didn't expect Picard to use the Argo and probably expected more conventional methods. I don't remember seeing any ground vehicles. The Argo was obviously designed for situations in which a shuttle would either be inoperable or impractical. It's possible that prolonged use in the desert conditions would have had adverse effects on the engines if they were not properly shielded.
9) It's possible that it was banned again or Geordi was unaware that the ban had been lifted. Worf would know seeing as how he was posted on DS9 but Geordi would not necessarily know if he was on the other side of the galaxy and he is not exactly known for being a drinker.
11) I doubt that the Romulans would have said, "We need more, tougher man power so we're going to use our neighbors, the Remans, who also happen to be a slave race." If anything the Romulans probably just slipped them in quietly.
12) Shinzon killed the Senate and may have had silent supporters who immediately jumped on the chance to advance their power and then installed Shinzon as praetor. They were not exactly in a position to refuse. Of course it's entirely possible that the Romulan military was forming a force to confront Shinzon elsewhere and they were just letting Shinzon have his was for a while to buy time.
13) Yes, respect. The was I see it Shinzon has a great deal of respect for Picard. He tries to get to know Picard and understand him. He is fully aware of what he is going to do to Picard but he would rather Picard surrender himself willingly rather than having to drag him kicking and screaming.
14) I really didn't notice this, but whatever.
15) As I recall, Shatner wasn't to thin when he was making some of the later films with the original crew. *shrug*
16) Shinzon is causing havoc. He's striking from multiple sides. It's only purpose is to catch the crew off guard and to perhaps give him a thrill.
17) He may have changed momentarily in First Contact, but Picard's sense of self and sense of morals are very strong and he will try to stick to them as long as possible. He probably doesn't want to change in fact, he does not like that person really and he reverts to his usual stance and demeanor when it's over. It's only when he gets pushed over the edge that he changes.
18) We are assuming that it was pure language. The symbols could have stood for any number of things which are used in the context of a code; both of those cases adds a layer of complexity. It also doesn't help when you have no working knowledge of a culture. Note also that UTs rely on continued common, contextual use. When taken out of context and jumbled up, it becomes harder.
19) Just because we don't see that many crew doesn't mean they aren't there, most crews don't "hang out" in shuttle bays (do Remans have the concept of "hanging out"). There were quite a few fighters in that bay and they were obviously intended to be used. As for the forcefield, most shuttle bays have fields which are intended to hold in the atmosphere so either the emitters on Voyager weren't powerful enough to create a field capable of stopping a shuttle or they never thought to do that or Tuvok figured it was better to let them go since they could probably do more damage to the ship if they tried to contain them.
20) Yes, and how many times have they pulled things out of their asses before. Thalaron radiation exists, even though it was only theoretical.
21) It's a psychological thing. The weapon is designed to terrorize the target and also perhaps give them the false impression that they can "run".
22) Then it's poor design. Come on, Romulans use black holes to power their ships, that's poor design in any book. It is also possible that things other than power distribution were damaged like control circuits, etc. Also keep in mind that someone has to actually push "Fire". If no one does that, well then... Again, the ship may not have been designed and built by the Remans as I suggested above.
23) Again, if the Remans didn't design it or build it then sure. Ultimately it's a flaw of arrogance on the part of whomever built it. It also sort of acts like a psychological weapon for the crew. If it's visible it is tangible and real and reminds them that should they betray the captain, they won't get very far.
24) Ultimately the forcefields are probably meant to protect the core from an outside attack. By breach I meant damage to the core which would cause plasma or reactants to leak into engineering. I would believe that for protecting the core they would use a pretty damn powerful forcefield with dedicated emitters.
35) Again, if he didn't build it. And originally the piece was straight up against the wall. Perhaps it was even part of the structure, I'd have to see it again. It was not intended for stabbing people, Picard just grabbed the nearest thing he could and let adrenaline to the rest.
36) *Shrug* Fine so she wasn't the focus of the movie. The doctor rarely is and when you get right down to it Crusher has mostly been a doctor in the TNG story lines. She was never like Bashir who is the adventurous, almost danger seeking type or The Doctor (not Who) who is discovering himself as an individual and discovering the world so to speak. As for Picard with hair, it's possible that there was a period where he shaved his head.
37) The point was not meant to be subtle. We the audience have always seen and it has always been stressed that Data is an android. He is not human and therefore can't die. We have always just sort of accepted this yet in this movie Data effectively dies, he becomes human in a sense. Or does he? That scene is the answer of that question. No maybe Data hasn't died, he has been reborn. He has even surpassed human existence and obtained life after death. It's a very Zen idea I suppose.
38) It is only obvious as a trap if you are thinking that it will be used that way. It's like the case where you do something or go a certain way so frequently to the point that you don't even think about it anymore and thus assume that nothing strange or bad could happen and yet one day it does even though you never thought it could.
39) Yes standing orders are stupid and silly and sure they could have disobeyed orders. But they probably didn't want to throw themselves into an unknown situation blinded. Would Starfleet have known their last location, probably yes, would someone have bothered to check, maybe, maybe not. As for the map, yes they probably had maps stored locally but they may have been receiving a special feed which showed either classified information or other real time data which would not be stored locally.
40) Depending on their speed they may have coasted at warp for a time, though granted not a long time. It's also possible that Shinzon's first shot damaged something but that something was not necessary to maintain warp only to go to warp. This is not a new phenomenon people today even say that XYZ is "down" or broken but don't say what is broken or what the exact damage is. Think of it like this, if the starter on your car breaks as you are driving it, you won't know until after you turn it off and try to start it again. Geordi may also have been referring to a different "first shot" since what is perceived to be the first shot on the bridge may not be felt elsewhere.
41) Yeah, there were continuity problems there, but it's still possible that they added some decks.
42) We don't really know what the intended use of the Argo was beyond that it is a planetary explorer. This one happened to be equipped with an all-terrain vehicle. For all we know it's like Danube class Runabouts and has a modular design and thus can be fitted with many different components.
43) I didn't remember that. But it's still entirely possible that Picard knew that you could weld the door shut while the Remans didn't. They may have also assumed that Picard locked the doors via computer. And yes, it is entirely possible that the Remans didn't know how their guns work. I'm sure not every Starfleet officer knows entirely how a phaser works. Ultimately you don't really have to know to shoot it. It's like this, do you know entirely how your iPod (if you don't have one insert appropriate complex device here) works, no, but you still use it. Do you know exactly what every bit in your car does, no, but you still use it.
45) I'm sure the Romulans would. They are just that crazy and dastardly. I'm sure some previous praetor thought it was somehow ironic or something. If it was a screen, Shinzon probably kept it on as a reminder to himself of his goal so as not to falter in the "home stretch".
46) It's a lot easier to shoot at something you can see, no matter how strong it is. Better to hide and wait. Shinzon probably also wanted to appear to Picard as the average Romulan, even though he doesn't really want to hide in the dark.
47) No but Earth is viewed as the center of the Federation and destroying it becomes a major psychological blow. If you see your seat of government fall then you realize that you are that much more vulnerable. Ultimately Shinzon probably doesn't want to cripple the Federation, he wants to cripple Earth and humanity. The entity which in his mind "abandoned him" even though it was the Romulans who did that.
Ouch.
1) While the original intent may have been that there was only Data and Lore, there is no evidence to suggest that there weren't earlier androids, certainly Soong didn't just envision Lore right off the bat. It's possible that previous androids were reused for parts or perhaps a very few were given away as "field prototypes" if you will.
3) It is possible that the Romulans built it (unless it is explicitly said that the Remans built it, I don't exactly have the script in front of me, or the movie for all that) and the Remans simply managed to steal it. As for the Tal'Shiar, I get the feeling they only involve themselves in things they worry about. If the Remans were considered nothing but slaves I doubt anyone on Romulus, including the Tal'Shiar would bother with them.
4) Again it's possible that the Romulans built it. And if the Remans were used as mass laborers it would have been easier for them to storm the ship and capture it. And even if they were just used as slaves, I'm sure they learned little bits and pieces while working, overhearing this worker or that.
5-6) It's irrelevant what the writers want, we are looking for an in universe explanation. Shinzon chose that planet because it would attract Picard's attention. Why would there be a positronic signal coming from a pre-warp planet? That's the draw. Shinzon is toying with Picard and loving it. He's just adding to the confusion. Could the whole away team been killed, maybe. But Shinzon figured that phasers would win over bullets in this case. Shinzon probably also didn't expect Picard to use the Argo and probably expected more conventional methods. I don't remember seeing any ground vehicles. The Argo was obviously designed for situations in which a shuttle would either be inoperable or impractical. It's possible that prolonged use in the desert conditions would have had adverse effects on the engines if they were not properly shielded.
9) It's possible that it was banned again or Geordi was unaware that the ban had been lifted. Worf would know seeing as how he was posted on DS9 but Geordi would not necessarily know if he was on the other side of the galaxy and he is not exactly known for being a drinker.
11) I doubt that the Romulans would have said, "We need more, tougher man power so we're going to use our neighbors, the Remans, who also happen to be a slave race." If anything the Romulans probably just slipped them in quietly.
12) Shinzon killed the Senate and may have had silent supporters who immediately jumped on the chance to advance their power and then installed Shinzon as praetor. They were not exactly in a position to refuse. Of course it's entirely possible that the Romulan military was forming a force to confront Shinzon elsewhere and they were just letting Shinzon have his was for a while to buy time.
13) Yes, respect. The was I see it Shinzon has a great deal of respect for Picard. He tries to get to know Picard and understand him. He is fully aware of what he is going to do to Picard but he would rather Picard surrender himself willingly rather than having to drag him kicking and screaming.
14) I really didn't notice this, but whatever.
15) As I recall, Shatner wasn't to thin when he was making some of the later films with the original crew. *shrug*
16) Shinzon is causing havoc. He's striking from multiple sides. It's only purpose is to catch the crew off guard and to perhaps give him a thrill.
17) He may have changed momentarily in First Contact, but Picard's sense of self and sense of morals are very strong and he will try to stick to them as long as possible. He probably doesn't want to change in fact, he does not like that person really and he reverts to his usual stance and demeanor when it's over. It's only when he gets pushed over the edge that he changes.
18) We are assuming that it was pure language. The symbols could have stood for any number of things which are used in the context of a code; both of those cases adds a layer of complexity. It also doesn't help when you have no working knowledge of a culture. Note also that UTs rely on continued common, contextual use. When taken out of context and jumbled up, it becomes harder.
19) Just because we don't see that many crew doesn't mean they aren't there, most crews don't "hang out" in shuttle bays (do Remans have the concept of "hanging out"
). There were quite a few fighters in that bay and they were obviously intended to be used. As for the forcefield, most shuttle bays have fields which are intended to hold in the atmosphere so either the emitters on Voyager weren't powerful enough to create a field capable of stopping a shuttle or they never thought to do that or Tuvok figured it was better to let them go since they could probably do more damage to the ship if they tried to contain them.20) Yes, and how many times have they pulled things out of their asses before. Thalaron radiation exists, even though it was only theoretical.
21) It's a psychological thing. The weapon is designed to terrorize the target and also perhaps give them the false impression that they can "run".
22) Then it's poor design. Come on, Romulans use black holes to power their ships, that's poor design in any book. It is also possible that things other than power distribution were damaged like control circuits, etc. Also keep in mind that someone has to actually push "Fire". If no one does that, well then... Again, the ship may not have been designed and built by the Remans as I suggested above.
23) Again, if the Remans didn't design it or build it then sure. Ultimately it's a flaw of arrogance on the part of whomever built it. It also sort of acts like a psychological weapon for the crew. If it's visible it is tangible and real and reminds them that should they betray the captain, they won't get very far.
24) Ultimately the forcefields are probably meant to protect the core from an outside attack. By breach I meant damage to the core which would cause plasma or reactants to leak into engineering. I would believe that for protecting the core they would use a pretty damn powerful forcefield with dedicated emitters.
35) Again, if he didn't build it. And originally the piece was straight up against the wall. Perhaps it was even part of the structure, I'd have to see it again. It was not intended for stabbing people, Picard just grabbed the nearest thing he could and let adrenaline to the rest.
36) *Shrug* Fine so she wasn't the focus of the movie. The doctor rarely is and when you get right down to it Crusher has mostly been a doctor in the TNG story lines. She was never like Bashir who is the adventurous, almost danger seeking type or The Doctor (not Who) who is discovering himself as an individual and discovering the world so to speak. As for Picard with hair, it's possible that there was a period where he shaved his head.
37) The point was not meant to be subtle. We the audience have always seen and it has always been stressed that Data is an android. He is not human and therefore can't die. We have always just sort of accepted this yet in this movie Data effectively dies, he becomes human in a sense. Or does he? That scene is the answer of that question. No maybe Data hasn't died, he has been reborn. He has even surpassed human existence and obtained life after death. It's a very Zen idea I suppose.
38) It is only obvious as a trap if you are thinking that it will be used that way. It's like the case where you do something or go a certain way so frequently to the point that you don't even think about it anymore and thus assume that nothing strange or bad could happen and yet one day it does even though you never thought it could.
39) Yes standing orders are stupid and silly and sure they could have disobeyed orders. But they probably didn't want to throw themselves into an unknown situation blinded. Would Starfleet have known their last location, probably yes, would someone have bothered to check, maybe, maybe not. As for the map, yes they probably had maps stored locally but they may have been receiving a special feed which showed either classified information or other real time data which would not be stored locally.
40) Depending on their speed they may have coasted at warp for a time, though granted not a long time. It's also possible that Shinzon's first shot damaged something but that something was not necessary to maintain warp only to go to warp. This is not a new phenomenon people today even say that XYZ is "down" or broken but don't say what is broken or what the exact damage is. Think of it like this, if the starter on your car breaks as you are driving it, you won't know until after you turn it off and try to start it again. Geordi may also have been referring to a different "first shot" since what is perceived to be the first shot on the bridge may not be felt elsewhere.
41) Yeah, there were continuity problems there, but it's still possible that they added some decks.
42) We don't really know what the intended use of the Argo was beyond that it is a planetary explorer. This one happened to be equipped with an all-terrain vehicle. For all we know it's like Danube class Runabouts and has a modular design and thus can be fitted with many different components.
43) I didn't remember that. But it's still entirely possible that Picard knew that you could weld the door shut while the Remans didn't. They may have also assumed that Picard locked the doors via computer. And yes, it is entirely possible that the Remans didn't know how their guns work. I'm sure not every Starfleet officer knows entirely how a phaser works. Ultimately you don't really have to know to shoot it. It's like this, do you know entirely how your iPod (if you don't have one insert appropriate complex device here) works, no, but you still use it. Do you know exactly what every bit in your car does, no, but you still use it.
45) I'm sure the Romulans would. They are just that crazy and dastardly. I'm sure some previous praetor thought it was somehow ironic or something. If it was a screen, Shinzon probably kept it on as a reminder to himself of his goal so as not to falter in the "home stretch".
46) It's a lot easier to shoot at something you can see, no matter how strong it is. Better to hide and wait. Shinzon probably also wanted to appear to Picard as the average Romulan, even though he doesn't really want to hide in the dark.
47) No but Earth is viewed as the center of the Federation and destroying it becomes a major psychological blow. If you see your seat of government fall then you realize that you are that much more vulnerable. Ultimately Shinzon probably doesn't want to cripple the Federation, he wants to cripple Earth and humanity. The entity which in his mind "abandoned him" even though it was the Romulans who did that.
Adm. Zaxxon wrote:Sortof off topic: I just herd the best name ever for the Shinzon. "The Copy/Paste Picard"
Ouch.
posted on March 1st, 2010, 7:10 pm
1) i didnt say it was impossible that b4 existed, just that its crappy writing. b4 became a throwaway character of the week, no depth, just there to drive a plot.
3) the idea that the romulans built it is actually quite good, but it conflicts with the line that shinzon said the remans built it at a secret base. having it be romulan tech makes it plausible, but i believe the writers intended that the remans built it, making it stupid.
also the tal'shiar aren't stupid, they are in fact quite clever, and extremely paranoid, they suspect everyone, their own people/slaves included. you cant have lunch on romulus without the tal'shiar approving of the calorie content.
4) overhearing science doesnt make you smart, they still couldnt have learned how to operate computers and torps and radiation guns.
5-6) its very relevant what the writers want, i am criticising the lazy writing here
picard would have gone to any planet with the signal, he would have even gone into deep space, and still picked up b4. it was pretty fishy as shinzon left b4 lying in pieces around a desert.
shinzon needed picard alive, phasers may be superior weapons to bullets, but one bullet to the head and you're dead, phaser or no phaser, the writers didnt think about this point. shinzon wouldn't risk picard dying, imagine how stupid shinzon would feel if picard died before he could suck his blood.
you say you dont remember ground vehicles, there were plenty i can assure you: the argo shuttle contained a dune buggy for patrick stewart to drive around, and the funny throwaway aliens of the week had dune buggies with guns. every1 had buggies.
where would the argo buggy be practical where a shuttle wouldn't?
in this particular case it was a wide open desert, a shuttle could fly around easily. maybe an urban environment? but any cities would have public transport and the owners of the city would give them transportation, blending in would be impossible in a giant silver dune buggy with english writing on the side and a giant phaser cannon on the back.
about desert conditions, i doubt starfleet technology is susceptible to anything on that planet, the away team was fine, meaning dust and sand are the only issues. shuttles have shields anyway, run the shields at low power to repel anything. anything that could harm the shuttle would definitely hurt the away team in the open buggy.
9) i agree its possible geordi didnt know, but its obvious its the writers not looking up previous stuff.
11) starfleet knew about them though, and knew where they were from and that they were low on the social ladder. it just smacks of trek introducing random aliens with little continuity.
12) i agree the romulan fleet may have been biding their time. it still seems like implausible writing.
13) surrender willingly? are you kidding thats certain death, picard may have loved surrendering in TNG but not that bad. the cold hard facts are that shinzon needed picard to live, he was in agony from delaying yet he kept on delaying. self preservation beats respect.
14) yes its true, redlettermedia noticed it too, check her voice in any clip from TNG she sounds weird, listen to movies she sounds american (the actress is, but the character is supposed to be alien).
15) at least shatner had the excuse he was a fat old admiral, riker was a commander still, expected to fight dramatic hand to hand battles with ugly aliens.
16) it only causes a slight advantage though, affecting only one crewmember out of hundreds, wasting huge amounts of time, straining his already frail body. these rapes were only put in to darken the movie, they were cheap transparent scenes.
17) his change in first contact was stupid and was not momentary, it lasted for all the remaining films. he dealt with the borg multiple times after assimilation in TNG and was fine, then suddenly he goes rambo on that borg in the holodeck, then gets angry at everyone and doesnt wanna blow up the damn ship. its way out of character. he sent hugh back to the borg in TNG, he could have killed every single borg but decided they had a right to exist. later he wants to eat their brains.
in insurrection he was rambo again, leading an insurrection (pardon the pun) grabbing a phaser rifle, throwing his uniform and pips away at the first chance to shoot someone.
in nemesis bad ass picard is back going on a solo mission to the scimitar instead of sending data who is superior in every way (strength, speed, accuracy, intelligence, hairstyle, etc)
18) this is a difficult point to argue, on one hand it flies in the face of trek continuity, on the other hand i say good, because i agree with you that cracking the door should have taken ages.
19) i was talking about corridors, there were very few crew in the corridors, maybe shinzon didnt take a large crew with because he was so arrogant. maybe all his crew were quelling an uprising on romulus. speaking of the shuttle bay, star trek never has guards in the shuttle bays, voyager had so many tdas it wasnt funny. (tda=taken and driven away, shuttles getting jacked GTA style) and tuvok couldnt stop shuttles because he is stupid, just like kim is stupid cos naomi wildman could outhack him. thats why he stayed
20) star trek has invented some shit, but this is a big example of lazy writing without bothering to consult scientists. just because they do it regularly doesnt mean we should accept it.
21) so the slaves with very little resources wasted some on being scary, thats silly. they would spend their resources on more important things.
22) if the poor design was in the disruptors, it should have been in the big gun as well.
23) so they decided that instead of protecting something you can blow up the ship with, they will motivate the crew? they should have just given them a dental plan.
24) the shields, the most powerful forcefields available, cant stop core breaches. forcefields have existed for ages yet no-one used them we've seen before
35) it was attached to the wall very flimsily, so easy, picard, a small french man could break it. even with adrenaline its gotta be weak.
36) She deserved better though, she was abused as a character in the movies pretty bad. the scene where picard is smacked upside the head with moby dick could have been done with crusher, and would have made a bit more sense. have her start off calm, then get angrier. picard shaved his head possible, just seemed like the audience is being assumed to be stupid.
37) you think that scene was good? the way the idea was presented it seemed like i was being hit in the face with a brick (i know what that feels like btw), the writers seemed to be of the opinion that unless they made the message blatantly obvious, it would confuse us.
38) they fly through the bassen rift every day? no they dont, i'm pretty sure its in the neutral zone. regardless, data should have put 2 and 2 together and said, hey this is a great place for a trap, lets spend the extra 10 minutes and go around.
39) they had to have known, then decided that the enterprise is not important enough to bother with.
on the local copies of maps, perhaps this map was special, but when it died, the local copy should have kicked in and replaced it, with less detailed maps.
40) its possible that these unlikely things are true, but its a lot more likely that they just didnt match the script to the vfx.
42) its possible other argo types wouldnt have the dune buggy, i wouldnt ask starfleet for a dune buggy.
43) you say the remans are smart enough to build/fly/maintain their ship, but not smart enough to use their guns the way picard did? he tapped a couple buttons, the guns dont seem that complicated, the remans should have known. if picard locked the doors using computer then the bridge should have been able unlock it. starfleet officers probably do know how their guns work, they are generally smart, and known for their engineering skills.
i cant afford a car or ipod, but i do have a phone with music abilities, and i know how to use every feature that doesnt require breaking it open. picard didnt have to break open the gun, so every feature he used can be done with a couple button pushes.
45) you're making big stretches here the romulans may not like the feds, but why not include klingon hate in their senate?
46) the scimitar was assaulted multiple times and its primary shields only dropped 30% thats strong enough to not need to cloak.
47) Earth is a good target to scare and demotivate your enemy in a large war, but this is one ship, destroying earth isnt that useful to him. it just smacks of the writers making earth the only planet in the federation again.
3) the idea that the romulans built it is actually quite good, but it conflicts with the line that shinzon said the remans built it at a secret base. having it be romulan tech makes it plausible, but i believe the writers intended that the remans built it, making it stupid.
also the tal'shiar aren't stupid, they are in fact quite clever, and extremely paranoid, they suspect everyone, their own people/slaves included. you cant have lunch on romulus without the tal'shiar approving of the calorie content.
4) overhearing science doesnt make you smart, they still couldnt have learned how to operate computers and torps and radiation guns.
5-6) its very relevant what the writers want, i am criticising the lazy writing here
picard would have gone to any planet with the signal, he would have even gone into deep space, and still picked up b4. it was pretty fishy as shinzon left b4 lying in pieces around a desert.
shinzon needed picard alive, phasers may be superior weapons to bullets, but one bullet to the head and you're dead, phaser or no phaser, the writers didnt think about this point. shinzon wouldn't risk picard dying, imagine how stupid shinzon would feel if picard died before he could suck his blood.
you say you dont remember ground vehicles, there were plenty i can assure you: the argo shuttle contained a dune buggy for patrick stewart to drive around, and the funny throwaway aliens of the week had dune buggies with guns. every1 had buggies.
where would the argo buggy be practical where a shuttle wouldn't?
in this particular case it was a wide open desert, a shuttle could fly around easily. maybe an urban environment? but any cities would have public transport and the owners of the city would give them transportation, blending in would be impossible in a giant silver dune buggy with english writing on the side and a giant phaser cannon on the back.
about desert conditions, i doubt starfleet technology is susceptible to anything on that planet, the away team was fine, meaning dust and sand are the only issues. shuttles have shields anyway, run the shields at low power to repel anything. anything that could harm the shuttle would definitely hurt the away team in the open buggy.
9) i agree its possible geordi didnt know, but its obvious its the writers not looking up previous stuff.
11) starfleet knew about them though, and knew where they were from and that they were low on the social ladder. it just smacks of trek introducing random aliens with little continuity.
12) i agree the romulan fleet may have been biding their time. it still seems like implausible writing.
13) surrender willingly? are you kidding thats certain death, picard may have loved surrendering in TNG but not that bad. the cold hard facts are that shinzon needed picard to live, he was in agony from delaying yet he kept on delaying. self preservation beats respect.
14) yes its true, redlettermedia noticed it too, check her voice in any clip from TNG she sounds weird, listen to movies she sounds american (the actress is, but the character is supposed to be alien).
15) at least shatner had the excuse he was a fat old admiral, riker was a commander still, expected to fight dramatic hand to hand battles with ugly aliens.
16) it only causes a slight advantage though, affecting only one crewmember out of hundreds, wasting huge amounts of time, straining his already frail body. these rapes were only put in to darken the movie, they were cheap transparent scenes.
17) his change in first contact was stupid and was not momentary, it lasted for all the remaining films. he dealt with the borg multiple times after assimilation in TNG and was fine, then suddenly he goes rambo on that borg in the holodeck, then gets angry at everyone and doesnt wanna blow up the damn ship. its way out of character. he sent hugh back to the borg in TNG, he could have killed every single borg but decided they had a right to exist. later he wants to eat their brains.
in insurrection he was rambo again, leading an insurrection (pardon the pun) grabbing a phaser rifle, throwing his uniform and pips away at the first chance to shoot someone.
in nemesis bad ass picard is back going on a solo mission to the scimitar instead of sending data who is superior in every way (strength, speed, accuracy, intelligence, hairstyle, etc)
18) this is a difficult point to argue, on one hand it flies in the face of trek continuity, on the other hand i say good, because i agree with you that cracking the door should have taken ages.
19) i was talking about corridors, there were very few crew in the corridors, maybe shinzon didnt take a large crew with because he was so arrogant. maybe all his crew were quelling an uprising on romulus. speaking of the shuttle bay, star trek never has guards in the shuttle bays, voyager had so many tdas it wasnt funny. (tda=taken and driven away, shuttles getting jacked GTA style) and tuvok couldnt stop shuttles because he is stupid, just like kim is stupid cos naomi wildman could outhack him. thats why he stayed
20) star trek has invented some shit, but this is a big example of lazy writing without bothering to consult scientists. just because they do it regularly doesnt mean we should accept it.
21) so the slaves with very little resources wasted some on being scary, thats silly. they would spend their resources on more important things.
22) if the poor design was in the disruptors, it should have been in the big gun as well.
23) so they decided that instead of protecting something you can blow up the ship with, they will motivate the crew? they should have just given them a dental plan.
24) the shields, the most powerful forcefields available, cant stop core breaches. forcefields have existed for ages yet no-one used them we've seen before
35) it was attached to the wall very flimsily, so easy, picard, a small french man could break it. even with adrenaline its gotta be weak.
36) She deserved better though, she was abused as a character in the movies pretty bad. the scene where picard is smacked upside the head with moby dick could have been done with crusher, and would have made a bit more sense. have her start off calm, then get angrier. picard shaved his head
possible, just seemed like the audience is being assumed to be stupid.37) you think that scene was good? the way the idea was presented it seemed like i was being hit in the face with a brick (i know what that feels like btw), the writers seemed to be of the opinion that unless they made the message blatantly obvious, it would confuse us.
38) they fly through the bassen rift every day? no they dont, i'm pretty sure its in the neutral zone. regardless, data should have put 2 and 2 together and said, hey this is a great place for a trap, lets spend the extra 10 minutes and go around.
39) they had to have known, then decided that the enterprise is not important enough to bother with.
on the local copies of maps, perhaps this map was special, but when it died, the local copy should have kicked in and replaced it, with less detailed maps.
40) its possible that these unlikely things are true, but its a lot more likely that they just didnt match the script to the vfx.
42) its possible other argo types wouldnt have the dune buggy, i wouldnt ask starfleet for a dune buggy.
43) you say the remans are smart enough to build/fly/maintain their ship, but not smart enough to use their guns the way picard did? he tapped a couple buttons, the guns dont seem that complicated, the remans should have known. if picard locked the doors using computer then the bridge should have been able unlock it. starfleet officers probably do know how their guns work, they are generally smart, and known for their engineering skills.
i cant afford a car or ipod, but i do have a phone with music abilities, and i know how to use every feature that doesnt require breaking it open. picard didnt have to break open the gun, so every feature he used can be done with a couple button pushes.
45) you're making big stretches here
the romulans may not like the feds, but why not include klingon hate in their senate?46) the scimitar was assaulted multiple times and its primary shields only dropped 30% thats strong enough to not need to cloak.
47) Earth is a good target to scare and demotivate your enemy in a large war, but this is one ship, destroying earth isnt that useful to him. it just smacks of the writers making earth the only planet in the federation again.
posted on March 2nd, 2010, 1:36 am
posted on March 2nd, 2010, 1:38 am
posted on March 2nd, 2010, 5:06 pm
posted on March 2nd, 2010, 5:22 pm
posted on March 2nd, 2010, 5:33 pm
posted on March 2nd, 2010, 6:17 pm
myleswolfers wrote:i think you hurt atlantisbase's feelings.
Don't worry, I'm fine. His statement just didn't make sense.
And is modern hatred different from older hatred
.Dave Denton
posted on March 3rd, 2010, 4:09 am
Last edited by Dave Denton on March 3rd, 2010, 4:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
posted on March 3rd, 2010, 4:46 am
I wasn't steamrolled. I just realized many people don't know what a plot hole is so I gave up on this thread. 
Though I was wrong about the Senator Tal'aura thing, it still doesn't make sense because the commander was a cohort of Shinzon and is/was basically two-faced to both Romulan and Federation factions. 
Though I was wrong about the Senator Tal'aura thing, it still doesn't make sense because the commander was a cohort of Shinzon and is/was basically two-faced to both Romulan and Federation factions. Who is online
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