Star Trek: Nemesis.....I noticed a "plot hole" last night.

posted on February 25th, 2010, 10:23 pm

My brother and I were hanging out yesterday and we decided to watch Nemesis.  I didn't notice this when I had previously viewed this film. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong (I didn't go through the movie and double check the lines.) but didn't the Romulan Senator Tal'aura plot with other Romulan senators/officials with Shinzon and the Reman military forces under the belief they would crush the Federation?  Yet when the Scimitar was beating the piss out of the Enterprise and Tal'aura came to Picard's aid, she acted all buddy buddy and even later stated something along the lines of "you've earned a friend in the Romulan Empire." 

Has anyone else noticed this?  A writers plot hole or should I just chalk it up to "Romulan treachery?!"

posted on February 25th, 2010, 10:26 pm

I think that the Shinzon had ticked her off enough to mutiny against him, and rally to The ent's ade.

That and it might have just been a ploy to make it seem like they were against the whole time. they did wait until the perfect time to show up didn't they?

posted on February 25th, 2010, 11:10 pm

hehe...you're probably right.  My brother and I were talking about it last night and this morning....it just didn't sit right.  Not that Star Trek writers every f....up anything 

posted on February 25th, 2010, 11:19 pm

yh he pissed her off bout the whole not female but romulan which is below him and dont forget romulans team up with whoever is best for them (maybe they thought they they wud win or dying is better than living as scum/slave)

[Myles]

posted on February 25th, 2010, 11:24 pm

Last edited by Myles on February 25th, 2010, 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

commander donatra commanded the valdore.

senator tal'aura only appeared at the beginning when she killed the senate.

there's no plot hole there.

but there are plenty of others you could fit the enterprise through, heres a quick and incomplete list:

1) another soong type android, where does star trek find them? data's R us?
2) why did shinzon have this android?
3) how did reman slaves build a ship?
4) how did anyone build such a powerful ship, it was stupidly powerful, with a perfect cloak and fast engines and a bfg 9000 radiation gun thing.
5) why did shinzon put b4 on a planet with deadly weird aliens with dune buggies and guns? wouldnt that lead to picard being killed? and shinzon needed picards blood remember.
6) why did star trek have dune buggies? shuttles are better in every coneivable way, they can fly, have shields and phasers etc, this came from patrick stewarts love of cars.
7) why didnt data just use the shuttles phasers to kentucky fry those weird aliens?
8 ) why was worf back in starfleet after becoming an ambassador? (i guess he could be an ambassador in starfleet, but all ambassadors we've seen before weren't) why was worf in this film?
9) why did worf say romulan ale should be illegal when we all remember it was made legal in ds9.
10) where did shinzon learn the name scimitar? thats an earth name
11) why did we never hear of the remans before today? they seemed like a throwaway alien of the week
12) how did these reman slaves conquer romulus, even with their huge ship, the romulan fleet is thousands of ships
13) shinzon captured picard early yet didnt do the blood sucking thing to save his life, procrastinator.
14) why did marina sirtis stop trying to voice her character properly
15) why did jonathan frakes get so fat?
16) why did shinzon/viceroy mind rape deanna, what purpose could that possibly serve? other than giving shinzon some "inspiration"
17) Why did picard's character change so much from the series (this problem and others happened in other TNG movies as well)
18) why couldn't data use his universal translator on the silly reman language? all other times in star trek, alien consoles are simple, data even had time to study the ships systems, yet it took him a dramatically long time to open a door.
19) why were the corridors on the scimitar just big enough for a small fighter? did the designers intend to have ships flying inside, or was it just convenience.
20) what the hell is thalaron radiation, what a stupid concept.
21) why did the scimitar need to open its wings to do this?
22) how could the scimitar use its bfg 9000 if all other weapons were offline? shouldnt the enterprise crashing into them have taken out the more complicated gun as well? every single disruptor was down, but the huge radiation gun that can kill everyone on a planet works fine.
23) why did the funny green vortex on the bridge not have a forcefield around it so prevent people shooting it like data did?
24) speaking of forcefields, what was the point of the one around the warp core?
35) speaking of the end bit, what was the weapon picard used at the end to impale shinzon, why was it there, and why was it so easy to bend?
36) Why was crusher even in this film?
37) could the end bit where B4 sings blue skies been any more blunt, hey its a possible way for data to undie. it totally ripped the emotion out of a sad death. theres not chance of him coming back, brent spiner ate jonathan frakes after filming concluded and is fat as well. i just ignore datas comments from insurrection that he ages, thats just plain stupid.
38) why did picard fly his ship through the bassen rift, he may be stupid, but data should have figured out that the bassen rift is the perfect place for an ambush.
39) when the enterprise didnt turn up on time, why didnt battle group omega come find them? they were only 14 minutes away if i remember rightly.
40) geordi clearly says the scimitar disabled their warp with the first shot, we clearly see multiple shots with the warp still functioning.
41) where did deck 29 come from? thats where the boarding happened, but in first contact there was only 24/25 decks depending on who you believe, picard or hawk.
42) what was the point of the argo, a shuttle with a dune buggy that took up all inside space nearly? that seems useless. (i mentioned the buggy's uselessness earlier, now the shuttle itself)
43) how did picard seal the door with his gun, when all the other reman redshirts only scratched the door with their guns?
44) donatra knew that the scimitar was really powerful, yet only brought two ships, couldnt she find more?
45) the romulan senate room has a map of their neutral zone with the feds, why? do they focus all their thoughts on the feds? do they really care about the neutral zone that much? this is where all their top people meet and they decide to decorate with something to remind them of an enemy?
46) why did shinzon sit cloaked for over a day at the beginning? how did that help him?
47) why did shinzon wanna destroy earth, its always earth, like its the most important thing evar, what about vulcan or ds9?

@ blade you're thinking of donatra as well, donatra tried to shag shinzon but he was like ewwww no icky cos romulans all wear gray, have no tits and have the same awful hair cuts.

posted on February 26th, 2010, 12:14 am

hahahaha.... all we need now is to go throught he plot holes in JJ Abrams movies

posted on February 26th, 2010, 12:16 am

commander donatra commanded the valdore.

senator tal'aura only appeared at the beginning when she killed the senate.

there's no plot hole there.

but there are plenty of others you could fit the enterprise through, heres a quick and incomplete list:

1) another soong type android, where does star trek find them? data's R us?
2) why did shinzon have this android?
3) how did reman slaves build a ship?
4) how did anyone build such a powerful ship, it was stupidly powerful, with a perfect cloak and fast engines and a bfg 9000 radiation gun thing.
5) why did shinzon put b4 on a planet with deadly weird aliens with dune buggies and guns? wouldnt that lead to picard being killed? and shinzon needed picards blood remember.
6) why did star trek have dune buggies? shuttles are better in every coneivable way, they can fly, have shields and phasers etc, this came from patrick stewarts love of cars.
7) why didnt data just use the shuttles phasers to kentucky fry those weird aliens?
8 ) why was worf back in starfleet after becoming an ambassador? (i guess he could be an ambassador in starfleet, but all ambassadors we've seen before weren't) why was worf in this film?
9) why did worf say romulan ale should be illegal when we all remember it was made legal in ds9.
10) where did shinzon learn the name scimitar? thats an earth name
11) why did we never hear of the remans before today? they seemed like a throwaway alien of the week
12) how did these reman slaves conquer romulus, even with their huge ship, the romulan fleet is thousands of ships
13) shinzon captured picard early yet didnt do the blood sucking thing to save his life, procrastinator.
14) why did marina sirtis stop trying to voice her character properly
15) why did jonathan frakes get so fat?
16) why did shinzon/viceroy mind rape deanna, what purpose could that possibly serve? other than giving shinzon some "inspiration"
17) Why did picard's character change so much from the series (this problem and others happened in other TNG movies as well)
18) why couldn't data use his universal translator on the silly reman language? all other times in star trek, alien consoles are simple, data even had time to study the ships systems, yet it took him a dramatically long time to open a door.
19) why were the corridors on the scimitar just big enough for a small fighter? did the designers intend to have ships flying inside, or was it just convenience.
20) what the hell is thalaron radiation, what a stupid concept.
21) why did the scimitar need to open its wings to do this?
22) how could the scimitar use its bfg 9000 if all other weapons were offline? shouldnt the enterprise crashing into them have taken out the more complicated gun as well? every single disruptor was down, but the huge radiation gun that can kill everyone on a planet works fine.
23) why did the funny green vortex on the bridge not have a forcefield around it so prevent people shooting it like data did?
24) speaking of forcefields, what was the point of the one around the warp core?
35) speaking of the end bit, what was the weapon picard used at the end to impale shinzon, why was it there, and why was it so easy to bend?
36) Why was crusher even in this film?
37) could the end bit where B4 sings blue skies been any more blunt, hey its a possible way for data to undie. it totally ripped the emotion out of a sad death. theres not chance of him coming back, brent spiner ate jonathan frakes after filming concluded and is fat as well. i just ignore datas comments from insurrection that he ages, thats just plain stupid.
38) why did picard fly his ship through the bassen rift, he may be stupid, but data should have figured out that the bassen rift is the perfect place for an ambush.
39) when the enterprise didnt turn up on time, why didnt battle group omega come find them? they were only 14 minutes away if i remember rightly.
40) geordi clearly says the scimitar disabled their warp with the first shot, we clearly see multiple shots with the warp still functioning.
41) where did deck 29 come from? thats where the boarding happened, but in first contact there was only 24/25 decks depending on who you believe, picard or hawk.
42) what was the point of the argo, a shuttle with a dune buggy that took up all inside space nearly? that seems useless. (i mentioned the buggy's uselessness earlier, now the shuttle itself)
43) how did picard seal the door with his gun, when all the other reman redshirts only scratched the door with their guns?
44) donatra knew that the scimitar was really powerful, yet only brought two ships, couldnt she find more?
45) the romulan senate room has a map of their neutral zone with the feds, why? do they focus all their thoughts on the feds? do they really care about the neutral zone that much? this is where all their top people meet and they decide to decorate with something to remind them of an enemy?
46) why did shinzon sit cloaked for over a day at the beginning? how did that help him?
47) why did shinzon wanna destroy earth, its always earth, like its the most important thing evar, what about vulcan or ds9?

@ blade you're thinking of donatra as well, donatra tried to shag shinzon but he was like ewwww no icky cos romulans all wear gray, have no tits and have the same awful hair cuts.

DUDE! WTF?!?!  These aren't plot holes you mentioned....just gripes with the film.  Have you ever just sat down and enjoyed a flick?!  Jeezus!  lol.  Thank you though for correcting me about the Senator Tal'aura.  I think you're right about them all looking alike w/ the uniforms and haircuts.  I remember this one time there was a Romulan who looked exactly like Denise Crosby.....right down to her dykie hair. :-p  :woot

posted on February 26th, 2010, 12:21 am

hahahaha.... all we need now is to go throught he plot holes in JJ Abrams movies

There are no plot holes, remember?!!?  Its an alternate timeline!  I loved that. *sarcasm*  He basically went "well I don't feel like reading anything about previous Star Trek movies/shows and their plots and history....so I'll just start fresh!"   

posted on February 26th, 2010, 12:36 am

There are no plot holes, remember?!!?  Its an alternate timeline!  I loved that. *sarcasm*  He basically went "well I don't feel like reading anything about previous Star Trek movies/shows and their plots and history....so I'll just start fresh!"   

hahaha OOOHHH yeah, a sad excuse for not studying.

[Atlantisbase]

posted on February 26th, 2010, 5:21 am

Last edited by Atlantisbase on February 27th, 2010, 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

1) another soong type android, where does star trek find them? data's R us?
2) why did shinzon have this android?
3) how did reman slaves build a ship?
4) how did anyone build such a powerful ship, it was stupidly powerful, with a perfect cloak and fast engines and a bfg 9000 radiation gun thing.
5) why did shinzon put b4 on a planet with deadly weird aliens with dune buggies and guns? wouldnt that lead to picard being killed? and shinzon needed picards blood remember.
6) why did star trek have dune buggies? shuttles are better in every coneivable way, they can fly, have shields and phasers etc, this came from patrick stewarts love of cars.
7) why didnt data just use the shuttles phasers to kentucky fry those weird aliens?
8 ) why was worf back in starfleet after becoming an ambassador? (i guess he could be an ambassador in starfleet, but all ambassadors we've seen before weren't) why was worf in this film?
9) why did worf say romulan ale should be illegal when we all remember it was made legal in ds9.
10) where did shinzon learn the name scimitar? thats an earth name
11) why did we never hear of the remans before today? they seemed like a throwaway alien of the week
12) how did these reman slaves conquer romulus, even with their huge ship, the romulan fleet is thousands of ships
13) shinzon captured picard early yet didnt do the blood sucking thing to save his life, procrastinator.
14) why did marina sirtis stop trying to voice her character properly
15) why did jonathan frakes get so fat?
16) why did shinzon/viceroy mind rape deanna, what purpose could that possibly serve? other than giving shinzon some "inspiration"
17) Why did picard's character change so much from the series (this problem and others happened in other TNG movies as well)
18) why couldn't data use his universal translator on the silly reman language? all other times in star trek, alien consoles are simple, data even had time to study the ships systems, yet it took him a dramatically long time to open a door.
19) why were the corridors on the scimitar just big enough for a small fighter? did the designers intend to have ships flying inside, or was it just convenience.
20) what the hell is thalaron radiation, what a stupid concept.
21) why did the scimitar need to open its wings to do this?
22) how could the scimitar use its bfg 9000 if all other weapons were offline? shouldnt the enterprise crashing into them have taken out the more complicated gun as well? every single disruptor was down, but the huge radiation gun that can kill everyone on a planet works fine.
23) why did the funny green vortex on the bridge not have a forcefield around it so prevent people shooting it like data did?
24) speaking of forcefields, what was the point of the one around the warp core?
35) speaking of the end bit, what was the weapon picard used at the end to impale shinzon, why was it there, and why was it so easy to bend?
36) Why was crusher even in this film?
37) could the end bit where B4 sings blue skies been any more blunt, hey its a possible way for data to undie. it totally ripped the emotion out of a sad death. theres not chance of him coming back, brent spiner ate jonathan frakes after filming concluded and is fat as well. i just ignore datas comments from insurrection that he ages, thats just plain stupid.
38) why did picard fly his ship through the bassen rift, he may be stupid, but data should have figured out that the bassen rift is the perfect place for an ambush.
39) when the enterprise didnt turn up on time, why didnt battle group omega come find them? they were only 14 minutes away if i remember rightly.
40) geordi clearly says the scimitar disabled their warp with the first shot, we clearly see multiple shots with the warp still functioning.
41) where did deck 29 come from? thats where the boarding happened, but in first contact there was only 24/25 decks depending on who you believe, picard or hawk.
42) what was the point of the argo, a shuttle with a dune buggy that took up all inside space nearly? that seems useless. (i mentioned the buggy's uselessness earlier, now the shuttle itself)
43) how did picard seal the door with his gun, when all the other reman redshirts only scratched the door with their guns?
44) donatra knew that the scimitar was really powerful, yet only brought two ships, couldnt she find more?
45) the romulan senate room has a map of their neutral zone with the feds, why? do they focus all their thoughts on the feds? do they really care about the neutral zone that much? this is where all their top people meet and they decide to decorate with something to remind them of an enemy?
46) why did shinzon sit cloaked for over a day at the beginning? how did that help him?
47) why did shinzon wanna destroy earth, its always earth, like its the most important thing evar, what about vulcan or ds9?

@ blade you're thinking of donatra as well, donatra tried to shag shinzon but he was like ewwww no icky cos romulans all wear gray, have no tits and have the same awful hair cuts.

Ok myles, here goes

1) Soong was a roboticist, a scientist, we know there were things before Data and Lore, B4 was one of them, a stepping stone on the path to perfecting the positronic circuitry.
2) Shinzon could have found it any where or could have gone looking for it or obtained it via some black market.
3) They did, it doesn't really matter how. I doubt the Romulan Senate or even the overseers bother watching every move the Remans make and given the ability of the Romulans to be immensely sneaky, you can expect the same from the Remans.
4) Where there is a will. They are sort of the outside observers and get to see all the "mistakes" being made. Remans may be employed in ship construction in which case they would have working knowledge of Romulan ship designs and might notice things, flaws, places for improvement the Romulans would never think of. They may have also had help from outside sources.
5) I doubt he planned on Picard actually going personally and probably figured that the parts were placed far enough from population centers to draw attention.
6) Starfleet is primarily a space oriented entity, but that's no reason to think that they wouldn't have ground vehicles, especially in cases where the use of shuttles is either difficult or would draw too much attention. In this case they were trying to stay low profile and blend in on a planet with a pre-warp society. Flying a shuttle from place to place attracts more attention than driving around in a buggy.
7) Again, pre-industrial society, prime directive, and there's no proof that the shuttle had phasers, not all do depending on their purpose.
8 ) Remember that they were en-route to Betazed, Worf was tagging along for the ride, and as far as we know Worf's commission in Starfleet was still valid, even though he was appointed an ambassador.
9) He's saying that it should be illegal, not that it is. The point is that it's really, really strong; too strong.
10) He's human, perhaps he thought it ironic. Perhaps it's also being translated.
11) They are essentially the scourge of Romulan society, the Romulans aren't exactly going to broadcast their existence to the universe. And remember it's Romulans we're dealing with, they only ever tell you half of what you want to know.
12) They killed the senate which probably threw the entire planet into chaos, not to mention the fact that they weren't exactly in a position to complain, given that Shinzon held a massive bio-weapon.
13) He was trying to get Picard to come willingly and do him some amount of respect. It didn't work.
14) Who knows, love, marriage, and the occasional telepathic rape change a person.
15) He's getting old... (DUH) (it's called middle age spread).
16) It's a form of psychological warfare; terrorism. He's trying to break down Picard's support network by destabilizing both Troi, Picard's "secret weapon" of sorts, and Riker, his right hand man who will now fear an attack on his wife.
17) He is essentially facing his own mortality. He is watching himself, or what it supposed to be himself, go through the other path his life could have taken and he is torn between trying to save the man and killing him.
18) The language may have been extremely difficult and there may have been very little information known about it. Also keep in mind it's a code so that makes it a little bit harder.
19) They were probably designed for moving large numbers of people and supplies simultaneously, possibly with large lifts.
20) Go with it. What the hell is Red Matter (which is more bogus).
21) Broader distribution pattern, faster distribution, etc.
22) The weapon may have been powered independently and the ship probably had half a dozen back up systems. The disruptor emitters may have been physically damaged or the power junction which feeds all the disruptors was taken out.
23) Shinzon was arrogant. He figured no one would actually be able to get close enough to shot it. Also a force field might have interfered with the radiation transfer.
24) To contain breaches and leaks and to prevent other debris from hitting and damaging the core or parts exploding off the core. Remember the TNG episode where the hatch on the intermix chamber gets blown off.
25) It was actually part of the interior decor. It was just a decorative piece so it probably wasn't very sturdy and Picard was upped on adrenaline which can do strange things.
26) She's the CMO, Duh, if you need to see the doctor, there she is.
27) But that's part of the point. Maybe "Data" isn't just about the body or that positronic brain. Maybe Data is immortal. As humans we all want life after death, or at least some do, we are certainly fixated by it. Well Data may just achieve that, who knows.
28) That may have been the fastest way to get to the rest of the fleet. They didn't think they would be ambushed, that's why it was an ambush.
29) They may have had standing orders to stay put or they didn't know when the Enterprise was coming and were simply told to meet them at those coordinates. They may also have not known where the Enterprise actually was, remember that the Enterprise was essentially off the map.
30) The Scimitar disabled their ability to warp, that is what they usually mean when they say that. That doesn't mean that the core is necessarily off line or that the warp nacelles are blown to pieces. It simply means that the system is damaged somewhere and they can't go to warp.
31) The ship was refitted, they could have easily added more decks. (Note however that there have been continuity issues involving the number of decks on a Sovereign class ship before in First Contact.)
32) It was meant as a multi-purpose planetary explorer which was equipped with an all-terrain vehicle for the places the shuttle couldn't fly or people couldn't walk. Who knows it may have been a prototype or concept ship for something else.
33) Picard was using a directed beam weapon which is probably more flexible in terms of power output, beam width, etc., while the Remans were using pulse weapons which are less flexible and only designed for short powerful bursts. Also they may not have been as ingenious as Picard or may not have realized that he welded the door shut.
34) She was going up against the Scimitar, a ship capable of killing an entire planet, the fact that she convinced one other captain to go along with her is impressive. Most were probably too scared or ready to side with Shinzon.
35) That room could have been built centuries before and they just never redecorated. It might also serve as a display screen or they use it as a reminder of how they have been "wronged" or some stupid crap like that. Rommies do seem to be able to hold a grudge.
36) Because he could. His goal was probably to scare the people and stay hidden. No one knows where he is so he becomes even more scary. It's psychological warfare.
37) Earth is the central icon of the Federation. It is the seat of the Federation government and Starfleet. You hit Earth, you effectively cripple the Federation as well as deal a blow to the mental state of nearly every human in the galaxy. How would you feel if your home planet just got erased like a chalkboard. Remember also that Shinzon was human but was cast out among the Remans; rejected. He probably had something against Earth which had been building for a long time. Ultimately he harbors some amount of hatred for Picard who lives, who got the chance to live, on Earth, the human homeworld, while he is stuck in some alien mine, doomed to die.

P.S. The Romulan from the TOS show was actually pretty hot. And there's nothing wrong with small breasts. I think they're rather cute. But that's just me. 

P.P.S. Is there, or can the devs make a "don't parse this bid" tag so that 8 ) doesn't end up as

posted on February 26th, 2010, 9:10 am

commander donatra commanded the valdore.

senator tal'aura only appeared at the beginning when she killed the senate.

there's no plot hole there.

but there are plenty of others you could fit the enterprise through, heres a quick and incomplete list:

1) another soong type android, where does star trek find them? data's R us?
2) why did shinzon have this android?
3) how did reman slaves build a ship?
4) how did anyone build such a powerful ship, it was stupidly powerful, with a perfect cloak and fast engines and a bfg 9000 radiation gun thing.
5) why did shinzon put b4 on a planet with deadly weird aliens with dune buggies and guns? wouldnt that lead to picard being killed? and shinzon needed picards blood remember.
6) why did star trek have dune buggies? shuttles are better in every coneivable way, they can fly, have shields and phasers etc, this came from patrick stewarts love of cars.
7) why didnt data just use the shuttles phasers to kentucky fry those weird aliens?
8 ) why was worf back in starfleet after becoming an ambassador? (i guess he could be an ambassador in starfleet, but all ambassadors we've seen before weren't) why was worf in this film?
9) why did worf say romulan ale should be illegal when we all remember it was made legal in ds9.
10) where did shinzon learn the name scimitar? thats an earth name
11) why did we never hear of the remans before today? they seemed like a throwaway alien of the week
12) how did these reman slaves conquer romulus, even with their huge ship, the romulan fleet is thousands of ships
13) shinzon captured picard early yet didnt do the blood sucking thing to save his life, procrastinator.
14) why did marina sirtis stop trying to voice her character properly
15) why did jonathan frakes get so fat?
16) why did shinzon/viceroy mind rape deanna, what purpose could that possibly serve? other than giving shinzon some "inspiration"
17) Why did picard's character change so much from the series (this problem and others happened in other TNG movies as well)
18) why couldn't data use his universal translator on the silly reman language? all other times in star trek, alien consoles are simple, data even had time to study the ships systems, yet it took him a dramatically long time to open a door.
19) why were the corridors on the scimitar just big enough for a small fighter? did the designers intend to have ships flying inside, or was it just convenience.
20) what the hell is thalaron radiation, what a stupid concept.
21) why did the scimitar need to open its wings to do this?
22) how could the scimitar use its bfg 9000 if all other weapons were offline? shouldnt the enterprise crashing into them have taken out the more complicated gun as well? every single disruptor was down, but the huge radiation gun that can kill everyone on a planet works fine.
23) why did the funny green vortex on the bridge not have a forcefield around it so prevent people shooting it like data did?
24) speaking of forcefields, what was the point of the one around the warp core?
35) speaking of the end bit, what was the weapon picard used at the end to impale shinzon, why was it there, and why was it so easy to bend?
36) Why was crusher even in this film?
37) could the end bit where B4 sings blue skies been any more blunt, hey its a possible way for data to undie. it totally ripped the emotion out of a sad death. theres not chance of him coming back, brent spiner ate jonathan frakes after filming concluded and is fat as well. i just ignore datas comments from insurrection that he ages, thats just plain stupid.
38) why did picard fly his ship through the bassen rift, he may be stupid, but data should have figured out that the bassen rift is the perfect place for an ambush.
39) when the enterprise didnt turn up on time, why didnt battle group omega come find them? they were only 14 minutes away if i remember rightly.
40) geordi clearly says the scimitar disabled their warp with the first shot, we clearly see multiple shots with the warp still functioning.
41) where did deck 29 come from? thats where the boarding happened, but in first contact there was only 24/25 decks depending on who you believe, picard or hawk.
42) what was the point of the argo, a shuttle with a dune buggy that took up all inside space nearly? that seems useless. (i mentioned the buggy's uselessness earlier, now the shuttle itself)
43) how did picard seal the door with his gun, when all the other reman redshirts only scratched the door with their guns?
44) donatra knew that the scimitar was really powerful, yet only brought two ships, couldnt she find more?
45) the romulan senate room has a map of their neutral zone with the feds, why? do they focus all their thoughts on the feds? do they really care about the neutral zone that much? this is where all their top people meet and they decide to decorate with something to remind them of an enemy?
46) why did shinzon sit cloaked for over a day at the beginning? how did that help him?
47) why did shinzon wanna destroy earth, its always earth, like its the most important thing evar, what about vulcan or ds9?

1) some of Soongs very early prototypes were mentioned in some TNG-episodes and they never were mentioned to be destroyed entirely. Some may still be "missing" somewhere so it's not that unbelievable Shinzon could have found one, or the romulans found one and Shinzon took it after he overthrew the romulan senate.

Ambassador Worf in Starfleet? Why not? Also: Why don't you ask that question since First Contact? He was ambassador there, as well o.O

Why didn't Shinzon take Picards blood in the first place? Shinzon was written as a character with a personality, not the most interesting or an original and unique one, but he wanted to learn who Picard himself is. Invited him for dinner and so on. Sure, it was about his "evil plan" the most time, but also Shinzon was curious who his genetical source is. This and the Data/Before-plot-threads are what I consider the reminder to STAR TREK in that movie. Something all other TNG-"movies" before simply missed.

How did Shinzon learn the earth-name Scimitar? Well. Don't you think the romulan spies didn't learn the languages of other peoples so they could spy alot better? Universal-translators are detectable. So I don't think their spies rely on those gadgets. Also, after Shinzon learned who he actually is, I guess he tried to learn about all those things and when he got into the military he had the opportunity and access to some stuff.


I know these are only some points I made out, and with some of your points I still agree. Like how slaves were even capable of building any starship and so on.

posted on February 27th, 2010, 3:18 am

Atlantisbase, when you answer questions please put the question as well.
Don't just put the answer, not all of us have good memory or rapid tracking.
I would really apreciate if you edit and include the questions as well.

posted on February 27th, 2010, 3:58 am

Done.

posted on February 28th, 2010, 12:41 am

wait i just realised i forgot to include 25-34 lol, i really wanted 47 points.

first i'll deal with atlantisbase's rebuttals

1) oh come on do you seriously believe that? in TNG it was always intended that it was data and lore, and that all other prototypes made before them were gone. its possible that there are other soong droids, but its so unlikely, and b4 was simply there to make the story possible, he was invented on a whim, the writers didnt bother considering that super convenient things are badly written. b4 existing isnt impossible, its just poor writing is my point.

2) looking for it where? how the hell did he know any of this existed, he was a slave for most of his life, then he was a leader for a short time. thats not a long amount of time to go find something that is extremely rare. the black market idea is more plausible, but i think its still unlikely because of the points in 1) that soong androids are supposed to be rare, not found everywhere.

3) it doesnt matter how? so we are supposed to accept poor writing? NO i wont accept poor writing, you may accept it blindly, but i will criticise poor effort whenever i see it.
you make my point, the romulans are the most paranoid people ever, the talshiar know everything about everyone, the reman slaves were confined to the romulan star system, on one planet, with guards watching them. they could not build a secret base, they could not train themselves. where would they find the stuff they needed such as torpedoes and antimatter/quantum singularities needed to build a ship, any ship? it was too convenient and poorly written.

4) where there's a will there's a way is a lie. remans were only used as cannon fodder (and canon fodder) and miners, shinzon ambiguously mentioned that remans mined dilithium, nothing else.
but lets assume the ambiguous lines aid your point and that the remans build ships, they are slaves, they are probably used in large numbers and are not allowed to have advanced skills. why would the romulans allow the remans to learn anything?
outside sources could not help the remans, the romulans are incredibly paranoid and i doubt they would allow any other races to go to remus.

5) thats silly, shinzon had a choice, he made the wrong one (because the writers wanted dune buggie chases). shinzon couldnt know who picard would choose for an away team, even if picard didn't go, the whole away team might have been killed. the pieces were placed close enough to the weird aliens that the aliens could drive there in dune buggies, not ships, automobiles.

6) they have had ground vehicles before, but they have always hovered, or hopped. the shuttle in this case was not much bigger than the car, the shuttle would have been much more useful. and about drawing attention, everyone seemed surprised when the aliens attacked, nobody bothered scanning for life signs i guess, they weren't trying to keep a low profile or blend in, they were in a giant silver dune buggie with an android and a klingon with phaser rifles, no chance of blending in with anything. the feature of the dune buggies was patrick stewart's influence. i enjoyed watching it, but it seemed dumb.

7) if this were TNG then you would be right, picard would have surrendered and spouted the prime directive, but this is a TNG movie, picard is bloodthirsty and would kill anything that moves. ok im exagerrating but picard changed for the movies, he became bad-ass, a terrible character change.
regardless of this, picard was perfectly happy with worf using the phaser cannon thing to blast them, and data shot his hand phaser at them. the aliens clearly saw the shuttle, so using the shuttle's weapons wouldn't change much. i agree with you that the shuttle may not have had weapons, good point i didnt think of.

8) about is worf still in starfleet - all the ambassadors we've seen before were not in starfleet, but it is possible he still was.
i concede that worf being on the ship is totally reasonable (i never said otherwise), but taking over as tactical officer is not, what about the real tactical officer? where did he go, before any of the trouble started worf was serving on the bridge as tactical officer. i would have liked a scene where picard relieves his real tactical officer and puts worf in charge cos he trusts worf, the excuses for worf being in the TNG films got flimsier for every film.

9) i reread my point and it was unclear (forgot a key line), i'll make it clearer:

- romulan ale was originally illegal for a long time (although starfleet officers sometimes ignored that law) it was illegal because of a trade embargo against romulus.

- in DS9: Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges (set before nemesis) the embargo was lifted in light of improved relations with the romulans because of the dominion war. Romulan ale was then perfectly legal and allowed, and was enjoyed by multiple officers in the episode.

- now in nemesis worf says it should be illegal and geordi or guinan replies it is.

it's clearly not illegal but the writers forgot.

10) universal translator is possible, but its very convenient. then again the UT always is. my point was a very small one in this case.

11) i agree that the romulans wouldn't advertise them, but its established in nemesis that they were used in the dominion war, and that starfleet had intelligence about them. but we as the audience never hear about them because the writers hadn't imagined them back then. so their introduction here was convenient and the remans became alien of the week.

12) chaos or no chaos, the romulans rolled over so easily, its not believable. there are other romulan planets, even if shinzon threatened to use his big gun i doubt they would just make him praetor and accept him without a fight. it was just so convenient.

13) respect? thats silly, he wanted to kill the guy to suck his blood, there was no need for respect. the writers gave picard too much plot protection here. if i needed to steal someone's blood to live i would do it straight away with no delay.

14) sirtis stopped acting properly in first contact. it was just her being a crap/lazy actress.

15) i know, my point was rhetorical, that maybe it's too late for the TNG cast to make films.

16) he dont need silly mind games, he has a large ship with many guns, the mind rapes were there just to make nemesis darker. they had no real purpose. now if he could mind rape the warp core into turning off he would be clever. picard didn't need support from troi in a battle, he needed a bigger arsenal of weapons. and riker is never any help.

17) his changed happened before nemesis (remember him using a tommy gun on a borg). this was terrible writing, the character was clearly established over 7 years of TNG, and the film writers just abandoned all this and made him blood thirsty and angry, because they were lazy and just wanted someone easy to write into films.

18) nothing in star trek is ever hard to crack, especially for data (thats poor writing in general) and languages are always easy to get.
the writing here conflicting with previous trek. but actually it was more realistic if anything, i never liked the idea of the UT.

19) we never see that many crew onboard, the idea of moving large people would give me the impression that the ship could land but it was huge and landing it would be nearly impossible, and rather pointless. the corridors were big enough for the fighter mainly as a convenience, just to allow more action packed scenes to be shoved down our throats for no reason.
on another note, its funny how the remans can put a forcefield up at the shuttle bay doors, but tuvok in voyager could never stop anyone leaving.

20) going with it is too easy, do the writers actually believe the the audience is so stupid? it is insulting that they expect me to swallow such tripe. rather than make the effort they just invent something beginning with T.
i agree with you that red matter is worse. jj abrams is a moron

21) rubbish, they could have just designed the ship fixed in a position where it can fire all weapons, avoid having to build all the mechanisms needed to move the wings.

22) powered independently is reasonable, but that doesn't explain it.
half a dozen backup systems is plausible, but then why dont these backup systems keep at least one of its dozens of disruptors online. it would only take one normal disruptor to shoot the enterprise. why would only one thing power ALL the dozens of disruptors and torps? thats poor design. and the radiation gun is a complex weapon, it must require a lot of technology. the explanation is once again poor writing.

23) you're right shinzon is arrogant like picard was when he was a young man. but shinzon had help building it, and not one person thought that it would be wise to avoid having the achilles heel of the ship so easy to hit, like the death star in star wars. its just bad writing. there were no consoles near the green vortex, the only thing in that room was the vortex, they could have just sealed it off.

24) a warp core breach is a large matter/antimatter explosion, the puny forcefield emmitters on the enterprise could never hope to contain a breach. leaks possibly. your point of preventing stuff hitting it is actually quite sensible. but the forcefield was only in the film so they could take it down dramatically.

35) decor doesn't make sense, why would shinzon spend limited resources on something that has no practical use other than stabbing people in dramatic action scenes? if i was building a ship i would rather add an extra supporting bulkhead than put in decorations. it was another convenience.

36) you seemed to have misunderstood me, my point here was that her character was grossly underused, she didnt have any serious lines. she was there as exposition. the only serious scene she was in was in picards office where a picture was seen of picard younger and completely bald, ignoring the fact that he had hair back then (seen in TNG: Tapestry) and he has SOME hair now. but they needed him to look like shinzon because the writers think we are stupid and dont remember TNG.

37) i dont see how your point is relevant, it doesnt refute my point that the message (which we both agree on) was delivered bluntly with all the finesse of a cudgel.

38) of course it was the fastest way to get the rest of the fleet, it was also the stupidest, i mean it doesn't take an android with a positronic brain to realise that a place where communications go offline is good for an ambush, and they had an android with a positronic brain (two in fact, but one was switched off at the time).

39) lets attack your points in order:

- standing orders to stay put would be stupid, and even if they had stupid orders the captains of those ships can take initiative and ignore them.

- the had to have the enterprise's eta, i'll explain why in the next bit.

- they should have known the enterprise's position, remember the stellar cartography display went offline when communications were lost, that means the enterprise was in constant communication with starfleet to maintain the map and the enterprise's position. the other ships would have known the exact position of the enterprise and their eta.

the map was stupid as well, why couldn't the enterprise have a local copy of the map? voyager didnt have communications with starfleet yet had maps.

and it is said that the enterprise is minutes away, and the battle lasted ages, so why didnt the other ships help? because the writing was poor and that would have made the battle too easy for the good guys.

40) you didn't understand this point either, so i'll clarify:

we see on screen the enterprise from outside, taking multiple hits while still at warp. yet later geordi says warp was knocked out with the first shot. if the first shot knocked out warp, then the enterprise would have dropped straight to impulse as has been seen in star trek before. the status of the core or nacelles is irellevant.

41) the refit didnt change the ship that much, its just poor writing. and i mentioned the discontinuity in first contact in my point, picard said one number and hawk said another.

42) it wasnt multi purpose, its only purpose was carrying that stupid dune buggie. nearly anywhere the dune buggie can go, the shuttle could get pretty near. plus the shuttle probably has transporters, the other shuttle of the time did. and if it was a prototype it was a stupid one. it was only there to feed stewarts love of cars.

43) if you remember the film, picard stole a redshirts gun, a general boring gun that all the remans had. so the remans guns were capable of the same as picards. so your point that picards gun was better than theres is flawed.
are you really saying that the remans dont know how their own guns work? cos that would be stupid. this was poor writing again.

44) a good point, i have no rebuttal to that.

45) regardless of how long ago they built it, its not sensible that they would build a lovely reminder of a strong enemy in their politcal centre. its just the writers being too lazy to make some believable romulan culture. if it was a display screen, why would shinzon have it on when nothing was going on there?

46) again referring to an earlier point, he dont need to do mind games or jedi mind tricks. he has a giant ship with huge guns. he is arrogant and believes in his own superiority, so he would adopt a confrontational stance rather than hiding in the shadows, he didnt enjoy being a shadow (or echo as he put it) to picard. i mean look at his ship, its bristling with weapons and has a giant gun strapped to the bonnet. he likes using its size and power to intimidate.

47) a very earth cenrtic view. earth isnt the only planet in the federation. humans live on many colonies and there are hundreds of other species in the federation. crushing earth would hurt the federation, but it wouldn't cripple it. picard spent the important bits of his life in space being a captain and explorer and sometimes a warrior. if shinzon really wanted to cripple the federation he would go after the shipyards and command centres.

Now for Redeyedraven

1) i answered this earlier, that its possible, but convenient and lazy writing.

2) i talked about his earlier too, all examples in star trek of ambassadors were not in starfleet. but it is possible worf is still in starfleet.
your point about worf being and ambassador in first contact is completely incorrect. first contact was set during season 5 of DS9, insurrection was set in season 7 of DS9, worf's appearance in insurrection was in the script but he said it in the background while the camera was focused on data and riker talking about something stupid. he was helping some people prepare defenses against the dominion. it was at the end of season 7 of DS9, after insurrection, where worf became ambassador to the klingon empire.
another odd point, in insurrection picard said that they were delaying an archaelogical expedition, in the middle of a war, why were they doing that?

3) about the whole blood thing, shinzon repeteadly delayed, even after he captured picard, he delayed just long enough for data to bust picard out, how convenient.

4) definitely plausible.

on the point of preventing smiley codes being turned into smileys, there's an option in the additional options to not use smileys.

posted on February 28th, 2010, 12:54 am

Jesus tap dancing Christ, I can't read through all this!!  Stop quoting the really long posts.  I know I did and now I regret it!!