Borg Emblem
What's your favourite episode? How is romulan ale brewed? - Star Trek in general :-)
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posted on June 9th, 2010, 9:30 pm
Dont bring up the queen i dont like her either lol. Sorry boggz no immortalization for you.
posted on June 9th, 2010, 9:44 pm
Nebula_Class_Ftw wrote:
Seems to mainly be a symbol of the Borg led by Lore, but also found in the collective.
I personally think that it's the symbol of Lore's "Borg-army". It's later appearance in the collective is probably just... a messed up interpretation of the Voyager-staff. They tagged on everything that makes things look more "interesting" to sci-fi-eaters who don't think about what they watch. And because the Voyager-staff in exchange didn't think about what they brought to TV in the end, the Borg got an insignia. Because of... reasons.
And the Queen is a total misconception on the whole collective as well. In FC she was tagged on, did nothing but giving explanation (screentime for nothing) and dying in the end. And the Voyager-staff of course resurrected her whenever she appeared to die again because she is so important to the collective. I wonder who decided that a collective needs an avatar to talk with while Picard in BobW was talking with... the voice actually.
posted on June 9th, 2010, 9:46 pm
The Collective used it in TNG, Lore's version was upside-down. It's the Borg logo.
posted on June 9th, 2010, 10:55 pm
The emblem probably has origins from deep in the Borg's past from before they were a collective or rather before they were a hive mind. It is probably what it appears to be, a mechanical hand; this most likely represents the perfection which is achieved through casting off one's organic being and becoming mechanical. The hand faces up as if to say that one is lifted, carried upward towards perfection; or in a religious sense, towards a supernatural state. Thus when Lore turns it upside down, he is suggesting that this "perfection" does not elevate one, but rather represses, subjugates.
Now why the Borg have retained the symbol or require an emblem at all is any one's guess. My guess is that as it continues to represent the Borg's goal of perfection, or rather as their goal has not changed, there is no need to change it. Also it may be that as they developed into a hive mind the symbol somehow became hard coded into the fabric of the collective. They themselves may not even be aware of this fact; the symbol just is, why is irrelevant.
I think most people misinterpret the Borg Queen entirely. They want to see her as an individual which dominates the collective, but that is wrong. The Queen is simply a physical representation of the collective. In reality the collective has no controlling figure; perhaps there is some sort of construct which guides and directs, but it is not a separate entity. The Queen is a singular representation of that entity; the physical body is nothing but a vessel into which the entity can extend control. Thus the destruction of the physical vessel does not mean the destruction of the entity; and a new vessel can be built to replace the old. The creation of the Queen may actually have been due to the assimilation of Picard. In doing so the Borg learned that most lower societies organize themselves as hierarchies and that when societies clash they look to leaders to meet and sort it out. Well who leads the Borg, no one really, they all lead themselves. For a species which does not have a hive mind this is a difficult concept to accept and work with, so to interact with other species the Borg created the Queen, a singular figure which can be identified as the "Leader" of the Borg.
Now why the Borg have retained the symbol or require an emblem at all is any one's guess. My guess is that as it continues to represent the Borg's goal of perfection, or rather as their goal has not changed, there is no need to change it. Also it may be that as they developed into a hive mind the symbol somehow became hard coded into the fabric of the collective. They themselves may not even be aware of this fact; the symbol just is, why is irrelevant.
RedEyedRaven wrote:And the Queen is a total misconception on the whole collective as well. In FC she was tagged on, did nothing but giving explanation (screentime for nothing) and dying in the end. And the Voyager-staff of course resurrected her whenever she appeared to die again because she is so important to the collective. I wonder who decided that a collective needs an avatar to talk with while Picard in BobW was talking with... the voice actually.
I think most people misinterpret the Borg Queen entirely. They want to see her as an individual which dominates the collective, but that is wrong. The Queen is simply a physical representation of the collective. In reality the collective has no controlling figure; perhaps there is some sort of construct which guides and directs, but it is not a separate entity. The Queen is a singular representation of that entity; the physical body is nothing but a vessel into which the entity can extend control. Thus the destruction of the physical vessel does not mean the destruction of the entity; and a new vessel can be built to replace the old. The creation of the Queen may actually have been due to the assimilation of Picard. In doing so the Borg learned that most lower societies organize themselves as hierarchies and that when societies clash they look to leaders to meet and sort it out. Well who leads the Borg, no one really, they all lead themselves. For a species which does not have a hive mind this is a difficult concept to accept and work with, so to interact with other species the Borg created the Queen, a singular figure which can be identified as the "Leader" of the Borg.
posted on June 10th, 2010, 11:45 am
Atlantisbase wrote:The emblem probably has origins from deep in the Borg's past from before they were a collective or rather before they were a hive mind. It is probably what it appears to be, a mechanical hand; this most likely represents the perfection which is achieved through casting off one's organic being and becoming mechanical. The hand faces up as if to say that one is lifted, carried upward towards perfection; or in a religious sense, towards a supernatural state. Thus when Lore turns it upside down, he is suggesting that this "perfection" does not elevate one, but rather represses, subjugates.
I think I can go with that, though I'd add a little interpretation in that the hand is outstretched, reaching for that perfection.
posted on June 10th, 2010, 2:35 pm
Atlantisbase wrote:I think most people misinterpret the Borg Queen entirely. They want to see her as an individual which dominates the collective, but that is wrong. The Queen is simply a physical representation of the collective. In reality the collective has no controlling figure; perhaps there is some sort of construct which guides and directs, but it is not a separate entity. The Queen is a singular representation of that entity; the physical body is nothing but a vessel into which the entity can extend control. Thus the destruction of the physical vessel does not mean the destruction of the entity; and a new vessel can be built to replace the old. The creation of the Queen may actually have been due to the assimilation of Picard. In doing so the Borg learned that most lower societies organize themselves as hierarchies and that when societies clash they look to leaders to meet and sort it out. Well who leads the Borg, no one really, they all lead themselves. For a species which does not have a hive mind this is a difficult concept to accept and work with, so to interact with other species the Borg created the Queen, a singular figure which can be identified as the "Leader" of the Borg.
The Borg should have learned that (most societies have hierarchies, etc.) long before they assimilated Picard. I think the Borg queen actually does dominate the collective, and is an individual (though she is also connected to the collective), because in one episode (I forget which) she countermands the Borg's decision to attack Voyager. She is there to give the Borg a direction, to help them prioritize. As it was put in one episode, she "brings order to chaos".
posted on June 10th, 2010, 3:45 pm
"Bringing order to chaos" in that context though suggests that the Borg's collective hive mind is chaotic and in disarray, which is not what the Borg would have one believe. I always thought that her statement regarding bringing order was just a general goal with regard to their will to assimilate other races. The Borg represent order. They are many, yet they are one. There is not meant to be any indecision, any internal conflict, any disorder. The idea is that it just "works".
If the manifestation of The Queen is the tie that binds it all together, then the biggest advantage of the Borg's unity is completely smashed by having such a figure. If they need such a thing to make sense of everything, then it shows they have a massive weakness. I don't believe the Borg would study other species and agree that a hierarchical command structure works best. The Borg adapt, they don't imitate and it would be totally against their ethos of purity in unity for them to just say, "Yeah, I can't make a decision, so I'll have a Queen who can".
That is basically the same underpinning problem linked to communism. Everyone is equal, yet one is more equal than the others. Maybe that was the idea, but I doubt it. The Borg just wouldn't have a symbol. Constructs like symbols, architecture, unique design style and a figurehead are all born of this being a TV show whereby the program producers cater for the lowest common denominator. The Borg have their own style and associated concepts to make them recognisable to viewers. In reality, a logo is inefficient just like having a Queen is inefficient. It wouldn't really happen.
If the manifestation of The Queen is the tie that binds it all together, then the biggest advantage of the Borg's unity is completely smashed by having such a figure. If they need such a thing to make sense of everything, then it shows they have a massive weakness. I don't believe the Borg would study other species and agree that a hierarchical command structure works best. The Borg adapt, they don't imitate and it would be totally against their ethos of purity in unity for them to just say, "Yeah, I can't make a decision, so I'll have a Queen who can".
That is basically the same underpinning problem linked to communism. Everyone is equal, yet one is more equal than the others. Maybe that was the idea, but I doubt it. The Borg just wouldn't have a symbol. Constructs like symbols, architecture, unique design style and a figurehead are all born of this being a TV show whereby the program producers cater for the lowest common denominator. The Borg have their own style and associated concepts to make them recognisable to viewers. In reality, a logo is inefficient just like having a Queen is inefficient. It wouldn't really happen.
posted on June 10th, 2010, 4:33 pm
Dave Denton wrote: That shape has the resemblance of a tesseract. Reminds me of the motion picture movies Cube.
I agree, maybe with a dark shade applied to it, could make into a nice Borg insignia.
i loved the cube series
you must be referring to cube 2: hypercube, where a tesseract was the main plot device. a tesseract is a 4 dimensional hypercube, a hypercube is any of the k-dimensional equivalents of a cube with k > 3 so hypercube was a misnomer as the tesseract was only one specific type of hypercube.
plus, boggz avatar picture looks nothing like a tesseract, it has triangles.
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