The Righteous and Religious Debate

posted on October 12th, 2007, 12:57 am

Hmmm, I've been following this... and now I don't understand where it went.
Could you explain further, Aux (when you are not eating of course)?

[Shril]

posted on November 3rd, 2007, 5:54 am

Last edited by Shril on November 3rd, 2007, 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

I'm also Christian and believe in the forgiveness of my sins by the death at the cross and revival after 3 days of God himself "Jesus Christ" so I can be in my father again and he in me through the Holy Spirit. It's about love, the biggest thing of all.  Living like He showed us is the goal of my life.
And whatever others say and trying to proof against, reality and living with a real existing being shows me that He is still there and cares about me and also about the world. You will never experience that if you don't want it. It's your free will that is untouchable, a rule God gave himself and he's bound to that.
For me the cause of evil that exists is also the result of the free will of each of us to do whatever we want and stands in our power, even believing there is no god, or creating a nuclear bomb and use it.
But through that others are not less worth than me, I'm exactly the same as you, my brothers and sisters which have broken with God out of free will.
And also the thing with omnipotence. God is not omnipotent in the way you understand omnipotence. For example: He can't hate and he can't sin and he also cannot create a stone that he is not able to lift.
He would never actually force you to believe him and so do I.

This is the only thing I'll say. You can take it or leave it.

[Optec]

posted on November 3rd, 2007, 11:13 am

Last edited by Optec on November 3rd, 2007, 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Topic moved to Smalltalk

[Dr. Lazarus]

posted on November 3rd, 2007, 2:08 pm

Last edited by Dr. Lazarus on November 3rd, 2007, 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Hi Jan, been a while, have you been away somewhere?

I understand where you are coming from as I was a Christian for a long time. It's easy to view the veneer of religion as representative of love, and it's true that many religious people are kind and caring, but it is my suggestion that they are like this in spite of their beliefs not as a result of them. We all have the ability to construct a moral system and I know many who have done who are entirely atheist. In fact, dare I say that the most moral, upstanding people I know are non-religious?

Jan I encourage you to read the bible because it is evident that you have not done so. Allow me to explain how I can tell this.

The bible is not a picture of love. It contains many statements about God's love and mercy but these ideas are not backed up by any actions contained in the scriptures. The God of the Old Testament is vengeful and violent, and on many occasions ordered the slaughter of entire nations, down to babes in arms and even animals. He ordered the slicing to bits of over 40 children simply because they mocked a prophet's baldness, he took pleasure in the sacrifice of living things, he ordained rape and pillage, and he is even unashamedly described as a God of war in certain places. You can find all of these things in the bible, they are not hidden and they plain to see. The old testament also contains utterly vulgar descriptions of ritualistic worship and tradition amongst the israelites, often related to sexual matters.

If you are thinking, "but Christianity is based on the New Testament", consider that Jesus himself actually said that it is impossible to invalidate anything in the mosaic law or "the scriptures" (the Old Testament), and he mentioned clearly that we are to follow them if we are to gain everlasting life.

On the other hand, the New Testament is hardly the very picture of loving care that you intimated in your post. As I clearly pointed out in my last post here, following Christ is divisive by definition, and requires an unloving attitude towards non-believers and even family members. I've seen families and lives destroyed because of the so called love of Christ. The poor attitude of Christ is evident in his sayings. And as for his supposed wisdom, he said nothing ingenious or that was not obvious. The one thing that everybody quotes (the golden rule) was exceedingly obvious common sense, and had been mentioned by spiritual men centuries earlier anyway.

You say evil exists due to free will. This is a very poor, very weak argument, and I've heard it a thousand times before. The whole idea depends on Adam and Eve being only capable of two choices, good and evil. This is a gross oversimpification and a typical logical fallacy. If God is so wise and loving, why could he not give them 100 good choices to make? They would still have had free will, and a huge amount of suffering would have been avoided. Is the creator of the universe so unimaginative that the only way he can prove his sovereignty is to allow heinous suffering? What is more, why does it immediately follow that all of their descendents should inherit sin and death? We could go on for hours poking holes in the famed "issue of universal sovereignty".

Either way God seems to be more concerned with his own sovereignty and worship than with anybody else's wellbeing or happiness. Here on Earth we have words for that kind of thinking, such as narccisistic personality disorder. The wise, loving God also allows the devil to unleash trouble upon the Earth to satisfy this universal chess game, while we suffer. We must be worth very little to God. Love? I think not.

You say God can't hate and he can't sin but to me all these things are evident. When you say that you are simply regurgitating what others have already told you. Have you really (really) thought about it? Do we truly live in a universe designed by a loving God? Is his holy book good (it is if you ignore 90% of it, maybe just by sticking to Proverbs).

The truth is the physical universe itself does not bear the hallmarks of creation by a loving God such as the one you describe. Can you explain to me where parasites, predators and prey come from? From what Edenic lifeforms did they adapt, and how did this happen on a scale of time orders of magnitude smaller than evolution? Do you really (really) believe that a lion was designed to eat grass (see Isaiah)? Why is a gazelle "designed" for speedy escape from e.g. cheetahs (i.e. from whom where they running before the fall from grace?). From what Edenic forms were bacteriophage viruses adapted? Parasitic nematodes? Liver flukes? Funnel web spiders? Why is most of the universe hostile to life, but cosily accomodates sun-destroying gravity phemomena such as black holes? Why do living things have suboptimal features (such as vestigal anatomy, a breathing/eating choking risk and a gradually swelling gland around a squashable tube)?

You cannot possibly read any of this without conceding that a drastic revision in your beliefs is necessary. You say much , but explain nothing. Everything you say is merely sentimental and emotional, and is not backed up by anything. I think it's crystal clear that you've hardly read the bible, and you've not read any of my previous posts. If you had read my posts, you would not be so quick to defend the indefensible. You say to "take it or leave it". This is another example of Christians presenting the world with oversimplified choices. In fact, there are other choices. I've not taken it (I never will), and I've not left it either, I've picked it apart, and it's easily done simply by exercising a little thinking ability. We should not believe something just because it sounds nice and has lots of gooey and emotional love words associated with it. We should believe something because it represents the truth (reality), even if that truth is uncomfortable or incomplete. I challenge you, Jan, to provide a solid, watertight justification for why you believe in what you do, instead of making declarations such as "Christ died for me out of his love for me". If you make a statement, back it up. Show me why it represents truth, and find hard facts which corroborate your ideas. [br]Posted on: November 03, 2007, 02:57:12 pm

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Almost forgot, I'd like to address this point about God not being truly Omnipotent. That's an interesting idea and I've never heard a Christian say that. I should point out that Jesus said on one occasion that with God nothing is impossible, more evidence that you simply have not read the bible.

There are many other scriptures which espouse God's omnipotence (and onmiscience, Psalms in particular), so it is perfectly understandable that the Judeo-Christian/Abrahamic religions represent God as all knowing and all powerful. Of course, that would be a serious logical error, as if God can create a rock he cannot lift, he is not omnipotent, but on the other hand if he cannot create a rock he cannot lift, he is not omnipotent. Omnipotence seems to be universally forbidden by the laws of logic.

Of course if you were correct about God being a limited, finite being, it is unscriptural, but I also have to ask, why then do you worship him? What value does it have? And above all, it changes nothing about the nature of the crimes commited in the bible by God and in the name of God, so the issue becomes mute anyway.

posted on November 3rd, 2007, 4:05 pm

If I may say so it almost seems as if Jan is describing this particular god as just a more "enlightened" and powerful human. The deity he describes seems quite naive, like a child perhaps, with powers that he/she/it doesn't understand.
...Because there is very little I can add to Doc's statement I will just state that if this god loved humans so much, why are we not even the masters of our own planet? Doesn't the bible state that "we" shall have power over all the beasts and plants of this world? There are about 1 million described species of insects, and perhaps anywhere from 8-20 million more. As you may have heard there are 450,000 species of beetles alone... the phrase "If one could conclude as to the nature of the Creator from a study of creation, it would appear that God has an inordinate fondness for stars and beetles" comes to mind"
If these insects were to go extinct, so would we. Life would in effect be reduced to a state similar to a ~2 billion year old earth (only a few early "plants" as "higher organisms")

posted on November 3rd, 2007, 7:11 pm

Just a few things I want to say,
God IS omnipotent, it doesn't possibly make sense any other way, does it? As you, yourself pointed out in...i can't remember where...or did u even? God MUST be omnipotent, it doesn't work if he isn't.
Also, it is COMPLETELY impossible for US to understand God. He created the universe, He is outside our limitations and our understanding. Our human brains cannot even UNDERSTAND who EXACTLY He is, what is doing, and why.
Also, the Old Testiment was NOT during what we call the dispensation of grace. When people disobeyed the laws that God GAVE them to live correctly, the people were punished. If people were not punished, how could God truly be God? People would continue on their way, doing the evil things that specifically told them NOT to do! You should understand this, since you've obviously analyzed the Bible.
Jesus came in the 'New Testament era' to give us grace, so, while we are still able to refer to the Old Testament for rules and guidelines, (seeing as they ARE good rules to follow, take the ten commandments for example) we are forgiven for what we've done, we do not require to slaughter animals to be without sin. christ came to save us, before there was no saving being done. We fell from holiness and purity when we sinned in the garden of Eden, it was OUR choice that caused our separation from God. God didn't want us to, yet He let us. Where would His love for us be if He MADE us be His servants? We would be mindless automatons. About yur 100 good choices, they STILL would have had to choose between the right and wrong choices. That choice they made was the first one they made and they STILL DID IT WRONG! We are humans, inherantly sinful.
Along the strand of the Bible, you say you've analyzed the Bible, right? (To sum it up.) Would the Bible not require MORE than just analyzation? It requires the spirit behind the Bible to become aparant. Have you read the Bible with the understanding that it can mean more than just what the words look like and what they EXACTLY say?
Oh and about your talking about faith healing, my brother's eardrum was more than 50% degenerated. There was nothing left of it, he was going to be DEAF out of one ear for the REST OF HIS LIFE. Around a little bit more than a week later, the ENTIRE eardrum was regenerated. How can this be? Did the doctors do it? NO! Was it some random probability of the universe? No, the body simply can not regenerate the ear drum that fast, let alone regenerate it to full capacity at all! We believed that he would be healed and HE WAS! Also, my pastor had a broken leg, with a cast on it. He believed in his heart that he would be healed, cut the cast off and it was. It didn't sit for months on end, he removed the cast and the broken bone was healed. This is the healing power of God.
One very last point that I would like to make. I know you don't classify yourself as an aetheist, but you obviously don't believe in God, right? So then, why do you take SO much time out of your life to attempt to convince others that God doesn't exist? I mean, if there is no God, what harm does it do to follow the absence of him? why do u devote SO much of your time and logic to convince others that there is no God? I'll tell you: it's because you're afraid. You won't believe that there is a God who loves you, who wants to be close to you, and wishes for your heart. You can't stand to believe the fact that without him, you are going to a fiery end in hell for the rest of eternity. It's because you're in denial.

posted on November 3rd, 2007, 7:12 pm

god this thread has become way of hand, can a moderator either split it or close it...

posted on November 3rd, 2007, 7:16 pm

Just a note to the moderators:

I really am sorry for this to get out of hand. I am used to people just kind of saying, "sorry." once I ask for  them to respect what I believe. I just meant to defend my belief for a moment, then thought it would be over. I don't care if the thread is closed, or moved, or whatever you want to do with it. Just please know that I did NOT attempt to create mayhem on your server. If you really want me to, I'll leave the forums. I joined the forums to become an active part of the community, I don't want to leave, but I will if you ask me to. Thank you for reading this.

Auxilio Ab Alto.

[Redshirt]

posted on November 3rd, 2007, 7:23 pm

Last edited by Redshirt on November 3rd, 2007, 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wow.  Ten bucks to whomever remembers the original topic. 

Side note: Y'all need to lighten up.  Try spamming the hoedown for a week and see if it helps things.

posted on November 3rd, 2007, 7:25 pm

Hehe, it was about when the mod was going to be released, I think...not totally sure... but that's what I think, any other takers?

posted on November 3rd, 2007, 7:29 pm

Going once, going twice...

It looks like the man in the Galaxy-class starship has it!

posted on November 3rd, 2007, 7:45 pm

/takeabow
Thank you, thank you, I'd like to thank... Dr Lazarous for bringing this up! (Or was it me...?)

posted on November 3rd, 2007, 8:03 pm

I don't think anybody wants you to leave the forums Auxilio, just enjoy the (more-or-less) good natured debate we are having 
There has been no name calling as of yet, no swearing, and no threats, so I take it we are still in the clear, no?
That being said... do you mind if I take issue with this point: "Also, it is COMPLETELY impossible for US to understand God. He created the universe, He is outside our limitations and our understanding. Our human brains cannot even UNDERSTAND who EXACTLY He is, what is doing, and why."
If this is true, then what are the various religious texts for... why is religion around? Isn't it for interpreting a specific deity's will? Aren't we trying to live as he/she/it would have us live? This IS interpreting "God" is it not? If we could not understand this, then how could we possible understand that this god "created the universe" being that it is out of "limitations and our understanding". ... and then that brings up the point: if we do not "understand who Exactly He is, what is doing, and why" then how can we possibly follow a religion. Aren't these the things religion is based on? We are the chosen people... god is a he... this god loves us... All these things require one to understand the deity's will and existence right? Now... back to homework, cheers 

[Dr. Lazarus]

posted on November 3rd, 2007, 8:24 pm

Last edited by Dr. Lazarus on November 3rd, 2007, 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

God IS omnipotent, it doesn't possibly make sense any other way, does it?

Actually, omnipotence makes no sense, as illustrated by the logical paradox of the unliftable rock.

As you, yourself pointed out in...i can't remember where...or did u even? God MUST be omnipotent, it doesn't work if he isn't.

Learn to read posts more carefully. Nobody claimed that, even Jan didn't try to claim that.

Also, it is COMPLETELY impossible for US to understand God.

Yes, if he is omnipotent, but as we've seen that's absurd. You've yet to prove that he even exists, never mind that he's all-wise and all-loving.

He created the universe,

Go back and read all my stuff about parasites, predators, prey and vestgial features and then try to claim that again. Do you read previous posts?

Also, the Old Testiment was NOT during what we call the dispensation of grace. When people disobeyed the laws that God GAVE them to live correctly, the people were punished. If people were not punished, how could God truly be God? People would continue on their way, doing the evil things that specifically told them NOT to do! You should understand this, since you've obviously analyzed the Bible.

Adam and Eve's descendents were punished for crimes they did not commit. It was God that created the cold rule that sons are punished for the sins of the father. And does not the whole fruit thing strike you as proportionaltely mismatched with the judgement? HAve you actually thought about all this? WHy did God even create humans with the ability to do wrong?

Along the strand of the Bible, you say you've analyzed the Bible, right? (To sum it up.) Would the Bible not require MORE than just analyzation? It requires the spirit behind the Bible to become aparant. Have you read the Bible with the understanding that it can mean more than just what the words look like and what they EXACTLY say?

The "spirit" of the bible (however you define that, which you have not) seems to be one of violence and hatred, not to mention division and nationalism. This idea that we "read beyond the words" is entirely subjective, not objective, and has caused wars. Besides, how am I supposed to figure out verses about two bears ripping apart 40 kids? When God ordered rape and pillage, what "spirit" does that reflect?

Around a little bit more than a week later, the ENTIRE eardrum was regenerated. How can this be? Did the doctors do it? NO! Was it some random probability of the universe?

Actually, yes! Have you ever heard of the normal (gaussian) distribution? If you do not understand basic probability laws and statsistics then it's no wonder you think miracles can happen. Go learn the shape of bell shaped curves and then ask yourself whether it is possible for very very unlikely events to occur. I think you'll be surprised. A little education goes a long way.

One very last point that I would like to make. I know you don't classify yourself as an aetheist, but you obviously don't believe in God, right?

That's a big presumption. I can't possibly disprove God because you can't disprove things that can't be subjected to scientific testing.

So then, why do you take SO much time out of your life to attempt to convince others that God doesn't exist? I mean, if there is no God, what harm does it do to follow the absence of him? why do u devote SO much of your time and logic to convince others that there is no God?

I promote reason. Religious people assume God exists and then search for evidence to support that idea. Scientists look at the evidence and see what conclusions can be drawn. Right now it doesn't look like the Abrahamic God is even there, let alone cares. Granted, the universe requires explanation, but yours is unsatisfactory. It's better to believe nothing than believe what is wrong. It is my personal responsibilty to help others to think objectively.

I'll tell you: it's because you're afraid. You won't believe that there is a God who loves you, who wants to be close to you, and wishes for your heart. You can't stand to believe the fact that without him, you are going to a fiery end in hell for the rest of eternity. It's because you're in denial.

You're sadly, sadly mistaken friend. Believe me, I'd love to believe there's a loving God up there. I actually did for 20 years. I've been there, worn the t-shirt. In fact, I yearn for such a closeness with God (this may surprise you). However, I will not deny the facts or reality. On the other hand, as uncomfortable as this reality is, it's better than yours of a possible firey hell (what a loving God you worship). Would you punish a child by putting his hand in a fire? Why does your God do that? Why would he do it to me simply for exercising my (God-given?) reasoning ability? Just like your colleagues, you spout of emotional language and stock answers without having ever thought them through. It's entirely possible that this life is not all there is, but yours is not the answer, and considering the horrific content of the scriptures, that's a relief. Next time, read my posts before you answer. It's very evident that you did not, as I address many of these points (e.g. suffering, fall from grace) in prior posts.[br]Posted on: November 03, 2007, 09:06:51 pm

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A note to our pious religious friends: if you make a statement, back it up with some sort of explanation. Not one, zero, zipp of you have ever done that, ever. You say so many things about God's love and how we "were" created or about how I "am" going to hell, but you never ever explain how you know these things to be true. You just "know" they are, without evidence. I'm sure this gives you a warm fuzzy feeling inside, but if you read the bible, or study real science, you will find that every one of these prior assumptions is called into question (most of them once you can see the lack of inspiration evident in the bible).

So, do some research. Actually spend some time learning to think, and then come back here and actually try to prove some of your baseless statements.

posted on November 3rd, 2007, 8:41 pm

Not really interested in sticking my head out in this one, but Doc, I feel I must point out that when you mention 'fiery hell'...

On the other hand, as uncomfortable as this reality is, it's better than yours of a possible firey hell (what a loving God you worship).

...that you're appealing to a stereotype that really doesn't reflect the viewpoint of a large amount of Christians, many who believe that 'hell' simply represents seperation from god, an 'eternity of hopelessness', if you will.