Saucer Sep. Gasp!

posted on June 25th, 2012, 3:38 pm

Huh, removing your power source getting better results than reducing energy use... interesting theory.

People should know by now, some subjects just don't die...

posted on June 25th, 2012, 4:43 pm

However, I think it's that battle which led to the idea of the Prometheus' MVAM. It's exactly the kind of thing I'd expect some bright spark at Starfleet Tactical to review and say "Hey, we can build a ship around that idea, except all elements would be warp capable and much more dangerous".

since it separates and has 3 warp drives.. does it have 3 engineering rooms then? surly it must do.. and 2 battle bridges along with the main bridge.

posted on June 25th, 2012, 4:45 pm

Muwahahahaha! >:D It has begun.....

Let the flame war begin Muahahahah.... >:D

I don't really care for engaging in them once they descend, but watching sure is fun. weeeeee.....

Well I'm pretty sure saucer separation is intended as a last ditch, save the non-combatants sort of option. It's true, a clever captian might think of some screwy or ingenous ways of using that feature, but I'm sure it's a pain in the ass to do.

I think in reality saucer sep would be very useful, but as a means of transportation. Turn the saucer into a big cargo hold, warp it where you need to, and just drop it off, pick up another one and get on your way. Want to set up a colony? Go warp your colonists in on a saucer, and let it orbit the planet and help set up the colony. The saucer can basically be its own mobile space station, and the stardrive is just there to push it along.

While a nice idea, only 6 Galaxies were built originally. And untill the Dominon War they weren't building more; and even then they were mostly empty. The time it would take to build a supply of saucer modules would be far better spent on building smaller ships.

Oh, and the I think the front page images are the FO models rendered in their original modeler (3DS Max I think) with a good amount of post-pro.

posted on June 25th, 2012, 5:33 pm

However, I think it's that battle which led to the idea of the Prometheus' MVAM. It's exactly the kind of thing I'd expect some bright spark at Starfleet Tactical to review and say "Hey, we can build a ship around that idea, except all elements would be warp capable and much more dangerous".

since it separates and has 3 warp drives.. does it have 3 engineering rooms then? surly it must do.. and 2 battle bridges along with the main bridge.

Since MVAM was automated in its only appearance, the two other parts are just as likely to be drones controlled from the main bridge as have their own control centres. More likely when you consider Starfleet ships tend to be lacking in back-ups and failsafes.

posted on June 25th, 2012, 7:03 pm

I think in reality saucer sep would be very useful, but as a means of transportation. Turn the saucer into a big cargo hold, warp it where you need to, and just drop it off, pick up another one and get on your way. Want to set up a colony? Go warp your colonists in on a saucer, and let it orbit the planet and help set up the colony. The saucer can basically be its own mobile space station, and the stardrive is just there to push it along.

I overlooked this before -- I think this is the exact kind of mission that Franz Joseph had in mind when he created the Ptolomy class tug, originally published in the Star Fleet Technical Manual; and while it's a great idea, it's not something that Starfleet would do with their highly valuable Galaxy-class vessels.

Since MVAM was automated in its only appearance, the two other parts are just as likely to be drones controlled from the main bridge as have their own control centres. More likely when you consider Starfleet ships tend to be lacking in back-ups and failsafes.

The Prometheus class will have three warp cores; and likely three bridges, and three main computer cores. Regardless of the automation available, I expect that any single section will be functional and able to accommodate the entire crew in the case of one or both other sections being destroyed.

posted on June 25th, 2012, 7:59 pm

3 Core doesn't equal 3 Bridges. Nothing seen of it implies they are designed to act seperate from each other, it only showed that they function as remote-controlled drones with no 'mind' of their own.

With what little was seen, it wasn't even shown if they have any equiptment in the Stardrives that's not relevent to their intended function of blowing things up.

posted on June 25th, 2012, 10:06 pm

3 Core doesn't equal 3 Bridges. Nothing seen of it implies they are designed to act seperate from each other, it only showed that they function as remote-controlled drones with no 'mind' of their own.

With what little was seen, it wasn't even shown if they have any equiptment in the Stardrives that's not relevent to their intended function of blowing things up.

That's why I said "likely", not "definitely". It's impossible to say exactly what systems are onboard as there was only the one episode where its interior was shown. Certainly the MSD on Memory Alpha doesn't appear to show additional bridge spaces (although it does show three computer cores and a shuttle bay), but it's not fully authoritative, and I would argue that Starfleet would include some form of auxiliary control areas so that the remaining sections can be piloted if the primary section was destroyed. I can't substantiate that claim in any way (and you can't substantiate yours that there will be none) as there is so little official and quasi-official information (quasi-official meaning in published technical manuals or other material written by the production crew in blogs etc) on the ship.

posted on June 25th, 2012, 11:10 pm

That's why I said "likely", not "definitely". It's impossible to say exactly what systems are onboard as there was only the one episode where its interior was shown. Certainly the MSD on Memory Alpha doesn't appear to show additional bridge spaces (although it does show three computer cores and a shuttle bay), but it's not fully authoritative, and I would argue that Starfleet would include some form of auxiliary control areas so that the remaining sections can be piloted if the primary section was destroyed. I can't substantiate that claim in any way (and you can't substantiate yours that there will be none) as there is so little official and quasi-official information (quasi-official meaning in published technical manuals or other material written by the production crew in blogs etc) on the ship.

Just to note here, that MSD looks to have been very quickly made and poorly thought out. Look at the shuttles. Placing them below the bay is fair enough, but they are far too big and it looks like they could only reach the doors if there was a complex transformation method to rearrange the interior.

The only canon info' we have is that the Galaxy class has a second bridge; and that the Prometheus class is capable of controlling its sections automatically. We only ever saw MVAM once, and it was hardly with a fully prepared and trained crew. It was also on a shakedown cruise - it's possible that secondary controls weren't installed.

Admittedly, the name does imply that the sole purpose is to attack a target from multiple directions; in which case the computer taking control is eminently plausible. There are a few of issues with that though:

1) We never see any Starfleet ship acting with that degree of automation. Even shuttles, which at least would have caused an attacker to divide their fire, have been manned on those few occasions when they've been in combat.

2) Those M-5 wargames in that TOS episode (name escapes me...) are probably going to put a damper on too much automation. Yes, it was about a century before the Prometheus was even thought of - but when a test involving placing a computer in control of a starship results in an horrific disaster, it will probably colour any attempt at replicating the feat.

3) Combat situations depend upon reaction. It's all well and good saying 'attack pattern beta', but if the ship you're firing at has suddenly cloaked or used an unknown weapon then the whole thing is useless. Related to this, the Enterprise constantly runs into technology that can disrupt some system or another. Sophisticated ECM is not unheard of even today, and imagine what will happen if the central bridge can't communicate with it's drones.

Now I'll grant that if they really wanted to the creators could answer all of these, but I'm just going by evidence on screen. I could also mention the fact that there was no such thing as an Emergency Command Hologram until it popped up on Voyager - so there must be some assumption that computers cannot function with great deals of autonomy.

Tyler, your point about the sections being designed solely to destroy stuff makes sense (I'd be tempted to agree, in fact) but logic is making me think that it's not their purpose. For one thing, they are larger than the Defiant - if they were pure weapon delivery systems then you could strip the bridge and everything out of the Defiant and still have plenty of room. Secondly, the VFX shots show windows on the hull.

A central hub and two drones makes perfect sense tactically (so long as the aforementioned problems are sorted, but as I said - they are easily worked around) but the Prometheus design doesn't suggest that that's its function.

posted on June 26th, 2012, 1:08 am

Amateur, to your point of never seeing any ship with such automation, the Prometheus was a prototype testing those very systems for possible use, so saying weve never seen it is kinda a moot point. And yes the M5 which was from the episode "the ultimate computer" prolly did damper that field of research but that particular system was very different as it used actual engrams from a human brain, an unstable one at that.

I would have to say that there would likely be auxilary control rooms of some sort, not necessarily a bridge, but it would make alot of sense that the other sections would be able to be controlled manually due to some form of emergency. Again though, the ship was a prototype and the advanced automation seemed to be more of a "proof of concept" type thing then anything else. If anything the engine rooms of the other sections should be able to control the ship if the need arised, just as you could lock out the controls of a Galaxy class and transfer them to the engine room in an emergency.

posted on June 26th, 2012, 1:35 am

Well, I'm sure that the Prometheus - being newer than the Galaxy - is armed with not just one hamster, but two. And come to think of it, probably at least three Porsche, one for each separate module of course.

posted on June 26th, 2012, 1:42 am

WHAT?

posted on June 26th, 2012, 1:49 am

What? Did I say something odd?

I did only look at the MSDs after all

Seriously, look closely

posted on June 26th, 2012, 3:07 am

Don't forget the ducks!

posted on June 26th, 2012, 3:50 am

What? Did I say something odd?

I did only look at the MSDs after all

Seriously, look closely

I know about the easter eggs in the Galaxy MSD, but where do you see hamsters in the Prometheus one.

posted on June 26th, 2012, 4:59 pm

I know about the easter eggs in the Galaxy MSD, but where do you see hamsters in the Prometheus one.

what is in the galaxy?
and i cant see anything either..